Of Orcs and Elves - Mirror Image Opposites or Not?

[Ivriniel]

Orcs, we're told, were a species made by Melkor in Utumno where captured elves were 'ruined'. Lore also tells us that Elves and Orcs had a natural antipathy for the other. We know Elves are immortal, but we're never told anything about the span of Orcs in LotR or Silmarillion.

I want to know what is meant by 'ruined', which to Melkor might have meant something else, entirely. One Vala's corruption is another's purification. How did Melkor do the ruining? Was any trace of racial memory left to Orcs? Do they have normal emotional experiences other than what we've been told. They do fear, I believe, for example. Is there some prophesy or cultural practices amongst Orcs that ritualised worship of their Deity, and were they without an appreciation of beauty, truth and Spirit. Where are their Spirits gathered?

For example, we know that Orcs thought Lembas stank, that cooked meat ruined its flavour and that sunlight was to be hated. So, did Orcs think Elves were evil? We know nothing of Orcish procreation, though it is stated that they breed fast.

Taking a more psychoanalytic emphasis, it seems to me that the mutual hatred implied something, down deep, in each species that each was afraid to admit. Don't we say that hatred is love contaminated by fear? And in a more modern adaptation of inter-racial warring in sci fi (e.g. Gene Rodenberry) is there not some rapprochement between species needed in Eru's great plan, rather than mutually assured destruction.

I have wondered what Eru seeks for the Orcs as well as the Elves as well.

[tom the eldest]

No,they dont think elves as evil.they know that themselves are evil.and if they were elves,then morgoth wont want the orcs to defect because they remember that they were elves right?the dark lord would have brainwash them so much that the wont remember they were elves.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

So, did Orcs think Elves were evil?

Originally Posted by tom the eldest

No,they dont think elves as evil.they know that themselves are evil.

I think it's more complicated than this. As I stated in another recent thread, Gorbag describes Sam, who he thinks is an Elf, as "more dangerous than any other damned rebel" (emphasis mine). This implies to me that Orcs considered their enemies to be nothing more than "rebels" against the natural rule of their masters, in this case Sauron.
Did they think they were Evil? Did they think themselves Good? I don't believe Orcs had a well-defined concept of Good and Evil, if they thought of Elves as "rebels". I think this kind of moral clarity was denied them by Morgoth and later Sauron, and that their world view was more defined by their misery: who was to be feared, who hated, who had the power, etc.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I want to know what is meant by 'ruined', which to Melkor might have meant something else, entirely.

The short essays on Orcs in the "Myths Transformed" section of Morgoth's Ring have the answers to this and indeed most of these questions. By this time Professor Tolkien was speculating that Orcs might not be corrupted Elves - but he seemingly never came to a decision in that regard.
He makes this remark: "It does however seem best to view Melkor's corrupting power as always starting, at least, in the moral or theological level. Any creature that took him for Lord (and especially those who blasphemously called him Father or Creator) became soon corrupted in all parts of its being, the fëa dragging down the hröa in its descent into Morgothism: hate and destruction." It seems that ruining began mostly with breaking creatures to Morgoth's will. The actual "ruination" followed: they became hateful and grotesque.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

were they without an appreciation of beauty, truth and Spirit

We know from The Hobbit that Orcs "make no beautiful things, but they make many clever ones." This doesn't necessarily mean that they lacked a culture, however. Consider the design on Grishnákh's knife, as discovered by Gimli: a "carved handle: it had been shaped like a hideous head with squinting eyes and leering mouth." Evidently Orcs did not produce purely functional things.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

We know Elves are immortal, but we're never told anything about the span of Orcs in LotR or Silmarillion.

Again from Morgoth's Ring: "As for Elves being 'immortal'; they in fact only had enormously long lives, and were themselves physically 'wearing out', and suffering a slow progressive weakening of their bodies... It remains therefore terribly possible there was an Elvish strain in the Orcs... Their life-span would be diminished."
So the ruination of Orcs' bodies explains their supposed mortality.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Where are their Spirits gathered?

Professor Tolkien speculates of Orc-souls that: "dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End." It depends whether Orcs have souls, really. He never really made up his mind for sure.

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

We know nothing of Orcish procreation

They "had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar."

[Mithadan]

Here is a thread debating whether Orcs were immortal or corrupted Elves.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ht=nature+orcs

And here is a thread addressing whether Orcs are inherently or irredeemably evil.

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...ht=nature+orcs

I provide these links to encourage discussion and provide ideas and insight, not to discourage further discussion.

I find the question of whether Orcs view themselves as evil to be intriguing. I would guess that Orcs are simply what their corruptted nature made them. Clearly, they enjoy cruelty; it is what they are.

[mhagain]

'It's my guess you won't find much in that little fellow,' said Gorbag. 'He may have had nothing to do with the real mischief. The big fellow with the sharp sword doesn't seem to have thought him worth much anyhow – just left him lying: regular elvish trick.'

So it seems that Orcs actually do have a sense of honour (of a kind), do see themselves as being on the right side, and do see Elves as, if not evil, then at least as not to be wholly trusted.

[tom the eldest]

I dont see that as a sign of honour.to me its just orcs asociating sam with common elvish traits:ambushing orcs when they not suspected it.