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Old 05-07-2014, 06:20 AM   #1
tom the eldest
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how durin founded the longbeards

How durin,who dont have any spouse,create his folks?does he take a spouse from another house,or just create her from stone?(sorry)
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Old 05-07-2014, 08:16 AM   #2
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According to late text connected with Of Dwarves And Men, Tolkien was thinking of a change: in a section concerning where the Seven Ancestors awakened, Durin, while still the Eldest 'in making and awakening', awakes alone and without companions, noting the plural here.

In the margin Tolkien explained that Durin wandered after awakening, and that his people were other Dwarves that joined him, JRRT also noting that other Dwarves should be laid to sleep near to the Fathers.

It's also interesting that Tolkien had added some description for the revised edition of The Lord of the Rings, making Durin the ancestor of the Kings of the Longbeards.
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Old 05-07-2014, 09:31 AM   #3
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So,he really taking a spouse from other fathers?
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Old 05-07-2014, 11:35 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by tom the eldest View Post
So,he really taking a spouse from other fathers?
Or from one of the other Dwarves that were laid to sleep near him.

To be honest, this is presented as a racial founding-myth and probably shouldn't be taken so literally.
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Old 05-09-2014, 05:45 PM   #5
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To be honest, this is presented as a racial founding-myth and probably shouldn't be taken so literally.
Then again, couldn't one say the same of the Elves' awakening at Cuiviénen? We as readers are given the Elves' "version" of First Age history in Arda, and the making of the Dwarves by Aulë is presented from their point of view, with a little detail about the Dwarves' reverence for the maker "Mahal", their name for the Vala.

I would take the view that though Durin might have been "alone", that was more a distinction of his being the Eldest of the race. The tale of their beginning in The Silmarillion says that Aulë "made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves" (emphasis added). That leaves room for the idea that he later made others, though only the Seven Fathers were mentioned specifically.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:32 AM   #6
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Might as well ask how we all came to be here (Old Testament version), since Abel was dead and Cain exiled.
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:15 AM   #7
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Then again, couldn't one say the same of the Elves' awakening at Cuiviénen?
Of course it could; the Cuivienyarna is presented as a mathematical lesson, after all:

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Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore.
That said, the Elves do have survivors from that time still among them (Círdan being a notable and likely example) whereas the Dwarves don't. You'll notice that Tolkien is careful to qualify statements about the Dwarves with "it is said", "it is told", etc, so even within the framework of his own stories it's being presented as a legend.
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:26 AM   #8
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That said, the Elves do have survivors from that time still among them (Círdan being a notable and likely example) whereas the Dwarves don't. You'll notice that Tolkien is careful to qualify statements about the Dwarves with "it is said", "it is told", etc, so even within the framework of his own stories it's being presented as a legend.
Part of the "in-world" explanation for that could be the general secretive nature of the Dwarves. Other races didn't as a rule have much to do with them that didn't involve commerce.
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Old 05-13-2014, 08:09 AM   #9
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Might as well ask how we all came to be here (Old Testament version), since Abel was dead and Cain exiled.
A lesson in begettin' when there was no gettin' to be got.
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Old 05-13-2014, 06:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by tom the eldest View Post
How durin,who dont have any spouse,create his folks?does he take a spouse from another house,or just create her from stone?(sorry)
Hi there Tom

I honestly really have little idea or knowledge about this.....I've not delved into any of the available manuscripts, and it's not since about 1984 that I've had a good look at Dwarf-y materials.

Though, I had some really fond memories return as I had a think about Durin's folk....I loved the stuff about ancient Dwarven heroes. Nogrod, Belegost -- and I never figured out where the 'seven' realms of Dwarves were. Does anybody know? I figured Iron Hills, Nogrod, Belegost, Moria and have no idea where the other ancient realms were.

I also remember that Aule made the Dwarves, away from Illuvatar, and that it was an act of mercy that spared this race. I read upstream that they were like 'Stepford Wives' when originally birthed (robotic) and that Eru fixed them. I don't recall that bit. I thought Aule had built them okay from the beginning?

Just guessing--I imagine that it's just an emphasis in the story to speak of Founding Fathers (but that females were birthed at the same time). Like we talk about Finwe, Elwe and Ingwe in sort of the same way.......

the Dwarven female equal opportunities movement didn't start til the 20th century (just kidding )
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:05 PM   #11
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Might as well ask how we all came to be here (Old Testament version), since Abel was dead and Cain exiled.
I guess that means that we need to search for a Tolkein Apocrypha if we want an answer. (though I suppose the notes ARE sort of the Apocrypha here. There is no doubt they are his, but as canonicity of anything there is always up for debate, they are functionally apocryphal.
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Old 05-13-2014, 07:09 PM   #12
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I've just looked over the Dwarf materials earlier on tonight.

The source of the first half of Aule and Yavanna is covered in HoME11, Latter Quenta Silmarillion, pages 203-215 (Harper Collins MMPB). CT takes us through the evolution of this text and the variant versions, but for the purposes of this question the important points are:
  • Durin not having a spouse is an earlier concept: the reason is that Aule had originally made one Dwarf (Durin, the eldest), then six other male Dwarves (the other Fathers), then six females, then he got tired and rested (lazy sod!)
  • The final text is that published in the Silmarillion, which CT dates to 1958, and in which the separate making of female Dwarves and the idea of Durin sleeping alone are not present.
  • CT concludes that the Dwarf material is all datable to roughly the same time and assigns the order: first draft (6+1), letter to Rhona Beare (6+1), final text (no 6+1).
  • CT interprets the "he had no companions" note in Of Dwarves and Men to mean that the other fathers were set down in pairs, and so they had 4 awakening places: the Firebeams and Broadbeams in the west, the Ironfists and Stiffbeards in the east, the Blacklocks and Stonefoots also in the east, and the Longbeards on their own in Gundabad; this interpretation is consistent with JRRT's presentation of the text and there seems no reason to question it.
So the answer is that Durin not having a spouse was an older concept that was abandoned. The final concept was that the Longbeards awoke in isolation, whereas the others awoke in pairs, but the matter of whether or not each father had a spouse is not entered into.
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Old 05-13-2014, 10:18 PM   #13
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I never figured out where the 'seven' realms of Dwarves were. Does anybody know? I figured Iron Hills, Nogrod, Belegost, Moria and have no idea where the other ancient realms were.
We only know of three: Gabilgathol (Belegost), Tumunzahar (Nogrod) and Khazad-dûm. The four others were in the East and apparently unknown to Western lore, although I daresay the Western Dwarves themselves probably had detailed information on them given that they were able to summon them for the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, for instance, and if I've read correctly still traded with them also. Given that four of the Seven Rings were destroyed, and we can imagine a Ring may have been allocated to each house (including the heirs of Belegost and Nogrod who now dwelt in Khazad-dûm, presumably, if this was the case) it seems not unreasonable to me that some of the Eastern mansions probably suffered over the course of the Third Age as well, if not the late Second.

I once read an interesting article proposing a mountain range in Rhûn between the Misty Mountains and the Orocarni or Red Mountains to allocate the four Eastern houses space, but personally I think it's not unreasonable to imagine that all four Eastern houses were delved into the Orocarni, if indeed the Orocarni was where they were delved. Belegost and Nogrod, despite being individual mansions, were both delved into Mount Dolmed, after all.

The influence of Khuzdul was likely to be seen in Adûnaic as well: Professor Tolkien mentions "the theory (a probable one) that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men - including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adûnaic was derived - had been influenced by Khuzdul."

I also think it's interesting to consider the bearded, axe-bearing Easterlings who appeared in Gondor during the War of the Ring, which is something which suggests to me the possibility of certain cultures in Rhûn which bore a Dwarven influence due to a comparatively high concentration of Dwarves in that part of the world.

There was no Dwarven settlement in the Iron Hills until Grór led part of Durin's Folk there in 2589 after their halls in the Grey Mountains were destroyed by Cold-drakes.
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Old 05-14-2014, 03:30 AM   #14
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We only know of three: Gabilgathol (Belegost), Tumunzahar (Nogrod) and Khazad-dûm. The four others were in the East and apparently unknown to Western lore, although I daresay the Western Dwarves themselves probably had detailed information on them given that they were able to summon them for the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, for instance, and if I've read correctly still traded with them also. Given that four of the Seven Rings were destroyed, and we can imagine a Ring may have been allocated to each house (including the heirs of Belegost and Nogrod who now dwelt in Khazad-dûm, presumably, if this was the case) it seems not unreasonable to me that some of the Eastern mansions probably suffered over the course of the Third Age as well, if not the late Second.

I once read an interesting article proposing a mountain range in Rhûn between the Misty Mountains and the Orocarni or Red Mountains to allocate the four Eastern houses space, but personally I think it's not unreasonable to imagine that all four Eastern houses were delved into the Orocarni, if indeed the Orocarni was where they were delved. Belegost and Nogrod, despite being individual mansions, were both delved into Mount Dolmed, after all.

The influence of Khuzdul was likely to be seen in Adûnaic as well: Professor Tolkien mentions "the theory (a probable one) that in the unrecorded past some of the languages of Men - including the language of the dominant element in the Atani from which Adûnaic was derived - had been influenced by Khuzdul."

I also think it's interesting to consider the bearded, axe-bearing Easterlings who appeared in Gondor during the War of the Ring, which is something which suggests to me the possibility of certain cultures in Rhûn which bore a Dwarven influence due to a comparatively high concentration of Dwarves in that part of the world.

There was no Dwarven settlement in the Iron Hills until Grór led part of Durin's Folk there in 2589 after their halls in the Grey Mountains were destroyed by Cold-drakes.
A fantastic post. Most informative, and really interesting. Particularly the citation about summoning aid from the other Houses during the war with the Orcs. This, again, reminds me that there was a treasure trove of adventure, stories and mythology that we will, so sadly, never know, from the author's hands. To have tales about the Rings and their histories, for each of the bearers would make exceptional reading.

I know FA is all about 'the fading' and so on, and that all tales must end, which is what makes a tale particularly compelling, in a sense. Grieving the passing of the story and nostalgia for the journey bear us the appreciation of a story--to know all things end--which for me is where Elvish Lamentation connects. And again, around the fringes of my imagination, are the flashes of Gildor Inglorion here, Gulls on the Shore--and for this thread--I can almost hear the sounds of Dwarven hammers and anvils as they forge wonders in their great mansions.

I read upstream that Gundabad was a homeland for a Dwarven Hall before it was overrun by Orcs! I have never heard that, and your post resonates more directly with my memory of Dwarven Lore.

Gundabad, being nigh to Carn Dum, was a Goblin homeworld and outpost, as I recall. Given The Witchking's reign, striking well back to SA, I wonder about Gundabad. Though I suppose Arnor's ruin was a TA phenomenon, and the Mirdain were several thousand years short of the Sauron's second fall in the SA, so that's time for a Gundabad takeover, in time for Arnor.

Can anyone clarify the Gundabad history and their citations for it?

[edit]I can't add this post to your reputation, Zigur, because I have to, first, add some to other posters--I'll say it this way, publicly, instead[/edit]

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Old 05-14-2014, 05:02 AM   #15
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The Gundabad history comes from Of Dwarves and Men, section titled "Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men".

This opens with a discussion of the awakening places of the Dwarves, and Tolkien just drops it in like a bombshell:

Quote:
...the second had been Mount Gundabad (in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks.
Gundabad was also a meeting place for Dwarf assemblies (same source):

Quote:
Though these four points were far sundered the Dwarves of different kindreds were in communication, and in the early ages often held assemblies of delegates at Mount Gundabad.
Gundabad as an Orc stronghold seems to have only occurred during Sauron's invasion of Eriador in mid-SA:

Quote:
The Second Age had reached only the middle of its course (c. Second Age 1695) when he invaded Eriador and destroyed Eregion, a small realm established by the Eldar migrating from the ruin of Beleriand that had formed an alliance also with the Longbeards of Moria. This marked the end of the Alliance of the Longbeards with Men of the North. For though Moria remained impregnable for many centuries, the Orks reinforced and commanded by servants of Sauron invaded the mountains again. Gundabad was re-taken, the Ered Mithrin infested and the communication between Moria and the Iron Hills for a time cut off.
(Use of the phrase "re-taken" is curious here but I don't believe it's significant; this was a late essay from a time when Tolkien himself was admitting that his memory was failing.)
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Old 05-14-2014, 05:29 AM   #16
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This opens with a discussion of the awakening places of the Dwarves, and Tolkien just drops it in like a bombshell:
The fact that it was a "Dwarven name" surprised me when I first read that essay a few years ago, but we can of course see a similarity between "Gundabad" and Finrod's epithet "Felagund", Hewer of Caves. Presumably "Gundabad" meant "cave of <something>" in Khuzdul. I have seen somewhere an association of the "-bad" element with the word "uzbad", Lord, so it could mean something like "Cave of the Lord/Lords" (Durin, perhaps? or representative of it being a meeting place) but that's highly conjectural.

I've for a long time thought that the addition of Gundaband as this especially primeval Dwarven site which predates even Khazad-dûm to be an excellent narrative flourish on the part of Professor Tolkien to give Dwarven history that extra touch of historical depth. It's also nice to have a Dwarven Cuiviénen or Hildórien, as it were, for Durin's Folk at least.

Regarding the Khuzdul-Adûnaic connection, incidentally, it's interesting to observe that the Adûnaic word for the number seven, "hazid," bears similarities to the Khuzdul consonant cluster "kh-z-d" which of course is used for words relating to the Dwarves themselves, who are very closely associated with the number seven. Working forwards, "hazid" might have come to mean "seven" based on its association with the word the Dwarves used for themselves, the "Dwarf-number" as it were. Working backwards, perhaps the Dwarves though of themselves as something like "the seven-part people" or something to that effect, assuming that element was also used for the number seven. Pure speculation on my part but it does make one wonder.
The pages found here are very interesting summations of a lot of the information sourced from The History of Middle-earth regarding languages:
http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/
The site's very "web 1.0" though.

I might also just throw this tidbit in about Dwarf writing, from Volume 12 of the History. Despite using the cirth publicly after they were introduced to it:
"They had, it is said, a complex pictographic or ideographic writing or carving of their own. But this they kept resolutely secret."
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:27 AM   #17
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[*]CT interprets the "he had no companions" note in Of Dwarves and Men to mean that the other fathers were set down in pairs, and so they had 4 awakening places: the Firebeams and Broadbeams in the west, the Ironfists and Stiffbeards in the east, the Blacklocks and Stonefoots also in the east, and the Longbeards on their own in Gundabad; this interpretation is consistent with JRRT's presentation of the text and there seems no reason to question it.
This is true, and not that you said otherwise but I think the note also later included [since it could agree with] the idea that Durin had no other Dwarves with him as well -- thus he had no companion[s] at his awakening, in the sense that he awoke alone instead of with another Dwarf-father [or companions in potential, as he could have had two fathers awaken with him, for instance], but also had no companions in the sense that his people were other Dwarves that later joined him...

... while the pairs of Dwarf-fathers were to be given other Dwarves, laid to sleep with them.
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Old 05-14-2014, 06:56 AM   #18
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<snip>
Pretty awesome analysis, sir.

It just occurs to me that I've read HoME so much that I'm finding myself starting to type "my father" when I really want to type "Tolkien" or "JRRT".
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Old 05-14-2014, 07:34 AM   #19
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Regarding the Khuzdul-Adûnaic connection, incidentally, it's interesting to observe that the Adûnaic word for the number seven, "hazid," bears similarities to the Khuzdul consonant cluster "kh-z-d" which of course is used for words relating to the Dwarves themselves, who are very closely associated with the number seven. Working forwards, "hazid" might have come to mean "seven" based on its association with the word the Dwarves used for themselves, the "Dwarf-number" as it were. Working backwards, perhaps the Dwarves though of themselves as something like "the seven-part people" or something to that effect, assuming that element was also used for the number seven. Pure speculation on my part but it does make one wonder.
The correlation with Seven is interesting, but I don't think it's confined to the Dwarves. There were seven Lords and Queens of the Valar, and with the Dúnedain we have "seven stars and seven Stones". Perhaps the number seven was something in Arda which was an "Easter Egg" reminder of the ultimate purpose of all things under the One.
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:21 PM   #20
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There was no Dwarven settlement in the Iron Hills until Grór led part of Durin's Folk there in 2589 after their halls in the Grey Mountains were destroyed by Cold-drakes.
I ran across a couple of quotations pertinent to this in Of Dwarves and Men:
[In the First Age]...the Longbeards had spread southward down the Vales of Anduin and made their chief 'mansion' and stronghold at Moria; and also eastward to the the Iron Hills, where the mines were their chief source of iron-ore. They regarded the Iron Hills, the Ered Mithrin, and the east dales of the Misty mountains as their own land."
And then in note 30:

It was a brief period in the dark annals of the Second Age, yet for many lives of Men the Longbeards controlled the Ered Mithrin, Erebor, and the Iron Hills...while the Men of the North dwelt in all the adjacent lands as far south as the Great Dwarf Road that cut through the Forest (the Old Forest Road was its ruinous remains in the Third Age) and then went North-east to the Iron Hills.
Much of this I find interesting, including the early association of Durin's Folk with Erebor, and the origin of the Old Forest Road. Anyway, none of this states unequivocally there was ever a -settlement- in the Iron Hills before T.A. 2590, but it seems to me as likely as not, at least for a time...both in the history of Middle-earth, and in Tolkien's ever-changing conception of the same.

But that's based merely on the above: there may very well be evidence to the contrary of which I'm ignorant.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:24 AM   #21
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Much of this I find interesting, including the early association of Durin's Folk with Erebor, and the origin of the Old Forest Road. Anyway, none of this states unequivocally there was ever a -settlement- in the Iron Hills before T.A. 2590, but it seems to me as likely as not, at least for a time...both in the history of Middle-earth, and in Tolkien's ever-changing conception of the same.

But that's based merely on the above: there may very well be evidence to the contrary of which I'm ignorant.
Good catch, I'd forgotten about these remarks. Interestingly the first seems to contradict the widely-presented assumption that the Grey Mountains and the Iron Hills were Second and Third Age remnants of the Iron Mountains. This text implies they were separate features as early as the First Age.

Evidently I spoke too soon when I dismissed the Iron Hills, although I think we can agree that, unlike Belegost, Nogrod and Moria, they did not feature an "ancestral home" of the Dwarves. I might argue, especially in reference to another recent discussion about the repopulation of Erebor after the death of Smaug, that the Iron Hills for the majority of their history might have primarily existed as a mining facility. They may have only featured a major "settlement" and population during the period of Grór and Dáin's dominion there.
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Old 05-19-2014, 04:44 AM   #22
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Good catch, I'd forgotten about these remarks. Interestingly the first seems to contradict the widely-presented assumption that the Grey Mountains and the Iron Hills were Second and Third Age remnants of the Iron Mountains. This text implies they were separate features as early as the First Age.
It's still possible; if the East-central Iron Mountains were damaged at the Breaking of Utumno and Melkor's first Chaining the Grey Mountains and Iron Hills could be remnants of that part of the Iron Mountains, and therefore the remnants date back a lot further than the Second or Third Ages.
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Old 05-20-2014, 09:20 AM   #23
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It has been awhile since I have read Tolkien deeply so I am a bit hazy on the timeline...but if the Grey Mountains are a remnant of the Iron Mountains, wouldn't that mean that Aule originally placed Durin in the mountains very near the strongholds of their great enemy?

In fact, according to this map Gundabad is not far from Utumno.

What I can't remember right now is how near in time to Melkor's initial mayhem and chaos the dwarves were created and awakened. Had Utumno been destroyed yet?

Maybe the proximity to Melkor is the reason why Durin decided it best to head south rather than stay at Gundabad.
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Old 05-20-2014, 09:38 AM   #24
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What I can't remember right now is how near in time to Melkor's initial mayhem and chaos the dwarves were created and awakened. Had Utumno been destroyed yet?
It is said in The Silmarillion that the making and subsequent temporary dormancy of the Dwarves preceded the awakening of the Elves. It was for the sake of the latter that Melkor was assaulted in Utumno, and that stronghold destroyed.

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Maybe the proximity to Melkor is the reason why Durin decided it best to head south rather than stay at Gundabad.
Angband was of course still in being when Durin awoke, and that indeed could have been a factor in his travels.
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Old 05-20-2014, 10:51 AM   #25
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I do seem to remember now words to the effect of "Aule made the dwarves during the domination of Melkor" or something to that effect, hence why the dwarves are so stubborn and resistant to the domination of others.

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It is said in The Silmarillion that the making and subsequent temporary dormancy of the Dwarves preceded the awakening of the Elves. It was for the sake of the latter that Melkor was assaulted in Utumno, and that stronghold destroyed.
So it sounds like Aule's placement was done deliberately. I wonder if he originally intended the dwarves to be a bridgehead in resistance to Melkor and maybe after Eru's intervention he intended the dwarves to repopulate the parts of the world that had been mostly deeply under the domination of Melkor.

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Angband was of course still in being when Durin awoke, and that indeed could have been a factor in his travels.
Following up my repopulation theory, didn't the Vala assume Angband was deserted after the War of Powers?
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Old 05-20-2014, 12:12 PM   #26
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So it sounds like Aule's placement was done deliberately. I wonder if he originally intended the dwarves to be a bridgehead in resistance to Melkor and maybe after Eru's intervention he intended the dwarves to repopulate the parts of the world that had been mostly deeply under the domination of Melkor.
Well, Aulë placed the Fathers in widely dispersed locations, but it may be notable that the Eldest, Durin, was apparently placed the most westerly of them. Maybe it was thought that he might be able to rally all Dwarves against Melkor if it came to it.

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Following up my repopulation theory, didn't the Vala assume Angband was deserted after the War of Powers?
Apparently. Angband was imperfectly searched after Melkor's defeat. The Balrogs were able to remain hidden there until Melkor needed them to assist with Ungoliant.
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:50 PM   #27
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Perhaps the number seven was something in Arda which was an "Easter Egg" reminder of the ultimate purpose of all things under the One.
That's so cute.

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So it sounds like Aule's placement was done deliberately. I wonder if he originally intended the dwarves to be a bridgehead in resistance to Melkor
Well given Aulë's history with the Maiar affiliated with him turning to evil, there was no chance that was going to go smoothly, now was there?

I don't have anything more valuable to contribute (partly because my yawns are getting huge) but let me just say this has been an enjoyable thread to read! Oh and for those who are interested in Khuzdul, Magnus Åberg's An Analysis of Dwarvish in Arda Philology 1 is an interesting read.
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Old 06-24-2014, 11:56 AM   #28
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Well given Aulë's history with the Maiar affiliated with him turning to evil, there was no chance that was going to go smoothly, now was there?
That trend might not have confirmed itself completely by that point...
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