Is a Song of Ice and Fire better than Lord of the Rings?

[Thinlómien]

I don't know how deep I want to get muddled in this discussion. A Song of Ice and Fire is not better than The Lord of the Rings, it is probably worse if you need an honest answer. George R.R. Martin doesn't have Tolkien's gift of language or pacing. (Even though to be honest Tolkien's pacing isn't the best I've read either!) Still, George R.R. Martin is arguably the best and most notable writer of the fantasy genre today. (Who else can even be nominated? There are lots of good authors out there, but none that are similar milestones and game changers for the genre.) The scope of Martin's creation is probably the only one I can think of that comes even close to Tolkien. (And I don't want to start bickering about details. Martin's languages have no history. Tolkien's people have no religion. Now don't tell me that one of them is a shallow world builder because they are not concentrating on all the possible aspects of their worlds.)

I probably don't need to tell anyone on this site that I'm a huge Tolkien fan and I've actually started to admire George R.R. Martin's work more and more in the recent years. The amount of emotional, moral and plot layers in his work is just amazing. I have my criticism against him too (as I probably would have against Tolkien too if I hadn't been indoctrinated into tolkienism since I was a toddler ), but I'm annoyed whenever people bash either of the authors, especially people who haven't read their books. You can't say A Song of Ice and Fire lacks depth if you only read the first book or if you only watch the series. I can also warmly recommend this (spoilery) interview, both to fans who want to know more about the man behind the books and to people who think George R.R. Martin is superficial or stupid or that his books are centered around mindless splatter and sex.

*refuses to start an essay about how Martin's books are anti-war and anti-revenge and how they thematically mirror Tolkien's work more than most people realize*

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Thinlomien

Martin's languages have no history. Tolkien's people have no religion.

Languages must, by logical necessity, have a history; people need not have a religion. Moreover, one might wonder about what role religion, as we know it, would play in a world in which godly or angelic beings are manifest. However, there are at least suggestions of quasi-religious attitudes toward Eru and the Valar in many places (the most notable probably being the worship of Eru in Numenor), and there is also the suggestion of cults and Melkor-worship.

Still, George R.R. Martin is arguably the best and most notable writer of the fantasy genre today. (Who else can even be nominated?)

In terms of popularity, I would say that Robert Jordan comes close, though I suppose his death disqualifies him from the 'today' part. Philip Pullman could also be nominated. Terry Pratchett has a pretty large and devoted fan-base. And though it's her only major work, Susanna Clarke's Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell is fairly monumental. But, ignoring the 'best' part, I suppose I'd have to concede that Martin is the most notable fantasy writer today. A large part of his notability, it should be noted, is due to the TV series, though.

*refuses to start an essay about how Martin's books are anti-war and anti-revenge and how they thematically mirror Tolkien's work more than most people realize*

Now there I agree with you. The fact that something is portrayed doesn't mean it's being praised. But I feel like even some of Martin's fans fail to realize that, much like those who completely missed the point of A Clockwork Orange or Fight Club.

[cellurdur]

Will post what I have said before. ASOIAF is a fun read, but far too unrealistic and focused far too much on the soap opera life than the key things of the story.

Since it is fantasy the magic is not the problem. Rather the super human childen, the super human small person, the unrealistic distances, all characters being too flawed, the incredible plot devices guys like Littlefinger need to succeed.

It's a good book and enjoyable, but you have to constantly suspend your sense of belief chapter after chapter.

Flawed characters are okay, but when Ned and Davos look like saints compared to the rest then there is a problem. The show has actually had to whitewash so many characters to make people care about them.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

The show has actually had to whitewash so many characters to make people care about them.

Which has caused great outcry among the book purists. The hand wringing and gnashing of teeth about the whitewashing of Tyrion and Daenerys has to be seen to be believed.

It is almost as if some lout had invented a silly battle in Erebor between Smaug and the dwarves and then put that in a movie version of The Hobbit.

[FerniesApple]

I love both, but for different reasons, Tolkien has a lot of leaving things to the imagination stuff which is intriguing and mysterious, such as who is Bombadil, what exactly are Pukul men, what kind of flowers are growing round Minas Morgul, what are the Watchers, where are the Entwives. I have a million questions in my mind when I read Tolkien because some things remain unexplained, some things dwell in your mind forever, wheras I find Martins world more 'knowable' theres less mystery and ambiguity between the cracks. Martins world although fantasy is based on human greeds and lusts, its full of mud and blood, whereas Tolkien is more cerebral and spiritual and Faerie. If i went to Westeros I could end up dead on a stick, but if I went to middle Earth I could end up losing my mind with the sheer joy of being there, its far more perilous to wander into Lothlorien than Kings landing.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by FerniesApple

...its full of mud and blood, ...

This is possibly the best and most concice description of ASOIAF I have ever seen.

[Andsigil]

Is a Song of Ice and Fire better than Lord of the Rings?

Only if you like envisioning dystopia.

After both reading all of the books and watching the show up-to-date, I think I'm done with ASoIaF.

• Everyone you like gets slaughtered or broken
• Everyone you don't like gets slaughtered or broken
• Everyone in Westeros is miserable. Without exception. There isn't one happy person in the entire world.
• Westeros is as depressing as Oceania in 1984. It's even worse than Ohio.

I'm going to go read Cormac McCarthy's The Road to cheer up now.