Why not Ecthelion?

[IxnaY AintsaY]

You say it like being sent back to the Middle-earth backwater was a reward, when actually Glorfindel was being punished for taking out some minor, wet-behind-the-wings Balrog recruit through pure clumsiness. Meanwhile Ecthelion obliterated Gothmog and his toughest hench-rogs left and right using nothing more than a puddle and his freakin' hat*.

*I may have taken some minor liberties with this story.

[Nogrod]

I'm not willing to be a spoil-sport or anything, but wasn't it the case that Tolkien had to come up with this resurrection-idea only when he realised he had used the same name for two different characters both being remarkable enough they just couldn't have been two different persons - not to talk of the fact that one had actually died already before the second came along?

[Zigûr]

Is it at all possible that Glorfindel volunteered to return to Middle-earth? Maybe Ecthelion simply wanted to "enjoy his retirement" as it were - we have to assume that, in the fulness of time, he was re-embodied in Aman and got to go about his business.

What with no Elves ever permanently dying (except Fëanor I suppose, and however the Finwë-Míriel tradeoff ended up working out, and perhaps some others - I always liked that line which might be in Morgoth's Ring about the reports of resurrected Eldar about the fëa of the Avari in Mandos) it must have become really crowded in Aman after a while. I know the Eldar did not reproduce as quickly as Men but still...

[Yregwyn]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Is it at all possible that Glorfindel volunteered to return to Middle-earth? Maybe Ecthelion simply wanted to "enjoy his retirement" as it were - we have to assume that, in the fulness of time, he was re-embodied in Aman and got to go about his business.

Ya maybe he felt bad so he volunteered, i like to think they were setting around talking with Ecthelion teasing Glorfindel "hey at least i fell in the water on pourpose"..... haha

[Aiwendil]

You should remember that Ecthelion only killed multiple Balrogs in the very early 'Lost Tales' version of the story. At that point, Balrogs were conceived of quite differently from the great demons of fire and darkness that they became around the time of the writing of LotR. If the later 'Fall of Gondolin' had been carried further, it is highly doubtful that Ecthelion would have killed any Balrogs beyond Gothmog.

Of course, you're free to disagree - but one can't simply throw things written years apart together willy-nilly and expect any kind of coherence.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Is it at all possible that Glorfindel volunteered to return to Middle-earth? Maybe Ecthelion simply wanted to "enjoy his retirement" as it were - we have to assume that, in the fulness of time, he was re-embodied in Aman and got to go about his business.

What with no Elves ever permanently dying (except Fëanor I suppose, and however the Finwë-Míriel tradeoff ended up working out, and perhaps some others - I always liked that line which might be in Morgoth's Ring about the reports of resurrected Eldar about the fëa of the Avari in Mandos) it must have become really crowded in Aman after a while. I know the Eldar did not reproduce as quickly as Men but still...

Plenty of elves permanently die, none of the Moriquendi were reborn. I'm sure it's Morgoth's Ring where it's said the Dark Elves were seen in the Halls of Mandos but did not speak to the Eldar.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Plenty of elves permanently die, none of the Moriquendi were reborn. I'm sure it's Morgoth's Ring where it's said the Dark Elves were seen in the Halls of Mandos but did not speak to the Eldar.

I can't agee. As far as I'm aware, generally speaking, all Elves had the potential to be reincarnated. What passage in Morgoth's Ring states otherwise?

In Morgoth's Ring CJRT states something incorrect about Elven reincarnation with respect to his father's 'final' intent -- later corrected by CJRT in the notes to the Glorfindel essays in any case -- although if I recall correctly it wasn't about the issue you raise here.

So, just a general caution for employing MR when it comes to Elven reincarnation.

[Yregwyn]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm not willing to be a spoil-sport or anything, but wasn't it the case that Tolkien had to come up with this resurrection-idea only when he realised he had used the same name for two different characters both being remarkable enough they just couldn't have been two different persons - not to talk of the fact that one had actually died already before the second came along?

Ya but its way funner to think that reincarnation was how it went.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm not willing to be a spoil-sport or anything, but wasn't it the case that Tolkien had to come up with this resurrection-idea only when he realised he had used the same name for two different characters both being remarkable enough they just couldn't have been two different persons - not to talk of the fact that one had actually died already before the second came along?

No that wasn't the case

Tolkien's Elves were reincarnated (in some fashion) even in the early The Book of Lost Tales, thus well before Tolkien somewhat randomly borrowed the name Glorfindel for The Lord of the Rings -- not wholly randomly it seems, if we judge by a note in the drafts for The Lord of the Rings that Glorfindel should tell of his ancestry in Gondolin (although obviously Tolkien did not have Glorfindel tell of this in the ultimate version of the story).

Also Tolkien would not have been forced to use Glorfindel for The Silmarillion, and it hadn't been published by him -- meaning if JRRT really could not find out the 'truth' of this matter to his satisfaction, he didn't have to explain a scenario with 'two Glorfindels' in any case...

... as his readership only knew about one.

[Yregwyn]

Originally Posted by IxnaY AintsaY

You say it like being sent back to the Middle-earth backwater was a reward, when actually Glorfindel was being punished for taking out some minor, wet-behind-the-wings Balrog recruit through pure clumsiness. Meanwhile Ecthelion obliterated Gothmog and his toughest hench-rogs left and right using nothing more than a puddle and his freakin' hat*.

*I may have taken some minor liberties with this story.

ROFL Ecthelion Rules All!!!! I can see im gonna like you Ix, u think like me. No really that just shows the difference in caliber from 1st age to 3rd. Gandalf died killing Durins Bane, Ecth woulda never missed a step especially if he had Glamdring..... Thats why they didnt send him. Sauron didnt have anything to stand against him, the Valar wanted to make it a little sport huh? haha Glad i found this spot my wife hates LOTR and none of my friends read so its awesome to get to actually talk with someone about it!

[Puddleglum]

Originally Posted by Yregwyn

that just shows the difference in caliber from 1st age to 3rd. Gandalf died killing Durins Bane, Ecth woulda never missed a step especially if he had Glamdring.

Maybe, but I think you also need to consider circumstances. Gandalf met "B" on a narrow bridge where there was no room to dodge. He destroyed B's sword in a moment and dropped B into the gulf a moment later - it was only his being surprised by the whip and unable to avoid it that made the struggle even close.

War may be a science, but individual battles often turn on the simplest of circumstances. Except for that one chance of failing to avoid a whip (a simple slash of his sword to cut the whip-cord before being dragged in would suffice), and we would be saying how Ecth had to resort to desparation and kamikazi to >barely< kill B at the cost of his life, while Gandalf snuffed out Big-B with a swift 1-2 punch (parry sword; break bridge; End-of-story ... all done, no hu-hu) - and practically without breaking a sweat!

[Yregwyn]

Originally Posted by Puddleglum

Maybe, but I think you also need to consider circumstances. Gandalf met "B" on a narrow bridge where there was no room to dodge. He destroyed B's sword in a moment and dropped B into the gulf a moment later - it was only his being surprised by the whip and unable to avoid it that made the struggle even close.

War may be a science, but individual battles often turn on the simplest of circumstances. Except for that one chance of failing to avoid a whip (a simple slash of his sword to cut the whip-cord before being dragged in would suffice), and we would be saying how Ecth had to resort to desparation and kamikazi to >barely< kill B at the cost of his life, while Gandalf snuffed out Big-B with a swift 1-2 punch (parry sword; break bridge; End-of-story ... all done, no hu-hu) - and practically without breaking a sweat!

Good point. But.....the 1-2 punch as you put it would not have killed the Balrog just dumped him in a under ground lake. I think the breaking of the flame sword was more Glamdring then anything though, but i agree the bridge made it alot more complicated. Although the bridge wasnt the hard part for Gandalf it was chasing the wet Balrog who was running scared from him. He pursued him for what 8 days? Then finally cornerd him on Durin's Tower and 2 more days of fighting after that. No bridge it would have more then likely been over in minutes. In Ecth's defence he had only 1 arm (depending on what version we look at), for either part of or the whole fight.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Yregwyn

No bridge it would have more then likely been over in minutes.

Maybe, or perhaps not.

After they had fell into the cold lake, so cold it almost stopped Gandalf's heart, the balrog's "fire was quenched" and did not ignite again until they reach the summit of Celebdil.

Originally Posted by TTT, bk. 3, ch. 5, p. 125

Out he sprang, and even as I came behind, he burst into new flame

Remember, the balrog was essentially fighting without a weapon after they fell.

Originally Posted by FotR, bk. 2, ch. 5, p. 392

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

Glamdring glittered white in answer.

There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back and its sword flew up in molten fragments.

So it is said as they clash deep beneath the mountain, "ever he clutched at me, and ever I hewed him, till at last he fled into dark tunnels" [TTT, ch. 5]. It appears to me as though this is not just 1 minute of sparring, rather a prolonged encounter before the balrog fled all the way up the mountain.

Even before their physical encounter recall Gandalf's exclamation to the company.

Originally Posted by FotR, ch. 5, p. 387-388

I have met my match, and have nearly been destroyed... You will have to do without light for a while: I am rather shaken... The counter spell was terrible. It nearly broke me... I have never felt so spent, but it is passing.

The encounter left him totally winded. He could not even make a light for them in the dark. I'd figure the battle could have gone either way.

Finally they both let loose on the precipice, which neither walked away from.

Originally Posted by TTT, bk. 3, ch. 5"

Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire... A greatsmoke rose about us, vapour and steam. Ice fell like rain. I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountainside where he smote it in his ruin. Then the darkness took me

These do not seem to be quick encounters. Gandalf says, "Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm." A one or two minute long storm? I think not. Also He says, "I have never felt such a challenge" [FotR, bk. 2, ch. 5].