Farmer Maggot's Dogs

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

He did, in fact he was thoroughly creeped out by the stranger, hence his stepping up precautions. However, it seems clear from the passage in question that Maggot had no idea he was actually dealing with a supernatural being rather than just a sinister weirdo.

Maggot was friends with Bombadil, and may have heard of Gandalf (not sure). These are what I would describe as supernatural creatures. The Nazgul was just an old man turned wraith, poisoned by one of the Nine Rings of Power.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Maggot was friends with Bombadil, and may have heard of Gandalf (not sure). These are what I would describe as supernatural creatures. The Nazgul was just an old man turned wraith, poisoned by one of the Nine Rings of Power.

It's undead. I wouldn't call that "natural", would you? Besides, how does this help your case? I don't get it.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

The Nazgul was just an old man turned wraith, poisoned by one of the Nine Rings of Power.

Ummm....the word "understatement" would, in this case, be an understatement. I cannot begin to construe how profoundly you have misjudged the Nazgul. This dialogue just keeps getting stranger.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Ummm....the word "understatement" would, in this case, be an understatement. I cannot begin to construe how profoundly you have misjudged the Nazgul. This dialogue just keeps getting stranger.

I was, of course, generalising. And I am broadly correct in what I said. The Nazgul that Maggot met was indeed once an ordinary man (a king) turned wraith, a transition brought about by being consumed to evil by one of the Nine Rings of Power given to him by Sauron. Obviously a Nazgul would have other powers to protect him, with the power of Sauron being in him. Nevertheless I don't see a Nazgul elevated to the level of a ''supernatural'' being as with Sauron.

[Morthoron]

You have profoundly misjudged the Nazgul, and the entire discussion thus far certainly has an air of absurdity.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I was, of course, generalising. And I am broadly correct in what I said. The Nazgul that Maggot met was indeed once an ordinary man (a king) turned wraith, a transition brought about by being consumed to evil by one of the Nine Rings of Power given to him by Sauron. Obviously a Nazgul would have other powers to protect him, with the power of Sauron being in him. Nevertheless I don't see a Nazgul elevated to the level of a ''supernatural'' being as with Sauron.

The Nazgul had, by the time of the War of the Ring, existed for thousands of years. They were men of power before they succumbed to the lure of the Rings -- sorcerors, warriors and kings -- and invested with Rings of Power, their innate abilities were enhanced to the point that the WitchKing destroyed the Northern Numenorean kingdoms, and felt inherently powerful enough to challenge Gandalf himself (whether he was, in fact, powerful enough is improbable but never proven). If that isn't supernatural enough for you, I would suggest you look up the definition of said word.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

You have profoundly misjudged the Nazgul, and the entire discussion thus far certainly has an air of absurdity.

The Nazgul had, by the time of the War of the Ring, existed for thousands of years. They were men of power before they succumbed to the lure of the Rings -- sorcerors, warriors and kings -- and invested with Rings of Power, their innate abilities were enhanced to the point that the WitchKing destroyed the Northern Numenorean kingdoms, and felt inherently powerful enough to challenge Gandalf himself (whether he was, in fact, powerful enough is improbable but never proven).

The Nazgul that Maggot met was the only one I was discussing, I believe, not the Witch-king. The term ''supernatural'' is better reserved for creatures of a far higher stature in the world of Middle Earth, such as Sauron, the Balrog, and the Istari. A Nazgul is powerful, however, but not in this company, and not even in the company of Aragorn or any creature that does not fear a Nazgul. I therefore classify a Nazgul as an evil power that is governed and fuelled by the supernatural power of Sauron, and not more.

The original thread was about Farmer Maggot and his dogs, and his right to defend his land in an appropriate fashion. The appearance of a Nazgul completely altered his stance and his guard, to the peril of all trespassers.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

The original thread was about Farmer Maggot and his dogs, and his right to defend his land in an appropriate fashion. The appearance of a Nazgul completely altered his stance and his guard, to the peril of all trespassers.

Your idea of "appropriate fashion" is revisionist to be sure. Farmers/landowners have been chasing trespassers off their lands with dogs for millenia. This does not make them or the dogs "vicious", nor does it necessitate maiming or death. That Maggot was more on guard after the incident with the Nazgul is only natural, and also the increased wariness regarding the influx of brigands who were to become "Sharkey's men". Danger was imminent in the Shire at that time, and Maggot was a no nonsense sort of fellow. However, Maggot was as wise as he was wary, and he would certainly handle Sharkey's Men in a different manner and more harshly than a couple Hobbit boys stealing corn or cabbages (and it was obvious Maggot knew of Hobbit boys' thieving ways).

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Your idea of "appropriate fashion" is revisionist to be sure. Farmers/landowners have been chasing trespassers off their lands with dogs for millenia.

This is Middle Earth, not the UK or any other civilised nation with laws to protect farmers and the public alike.

Maggot was in a foul and shaken mood after the encounter with the Nazgul (not too many of these have been seen in England), and he upped his security stance to the highest level when he said to Merry he nearly set his dogs on the trespassing Frodo and company. The Nazgul was seen as the last straw, as though Maggot had encountered many other trespassers before (Frodo was one of them, but some years go). It is not known whether the dogs would have been used to merely chase trespassers off from then on, if indeed that was all Maggot trained them for. If the trespasser presented any retaliation, then the guard dogs would of course attack without hesitation.

Ultimately, I think Maggot would not have used his dogs to kill anyone or anything, not unless he could clearly see it was life vs death situation. The encounter with the Nazgul may have just made him extra paranoid and anxious, and angry almost to breaking point. He suspected the Nazgul would return, and was not far away.

[Inziladun]

This may be only semi-relevant, but in early drafts of FOTR Maggot was considered by Tolkien to be something of a kindred spirit of Tom Bombadil, and wasn't a true hobbit. Some of that may have survived in the way he dealt with the Ringwraith, having the sense that it was not a mere specimen of the "big people", as supposed by others in the Shire.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

This may be only semi-relevant, but in early drafts of FOTR Maggot was considered by Tolkien to be something of a kindred spirit of Tom Bombadil, and wasn't a true hobbit. Some of that may have survived in the way he dealt with the Ringwraith, having the sense that it was not a mere specimen of the "big people", as supposed by others in the Shire.

This is what I implied earlier, but I felt Maggot had learned much lore from his friendship with Bombadil so as to indirectly somehow deal with the Nazgul effectively, and without too much fear.

[Legolas]

I have taken the liberty of cleaning up the posts above. I suggest a friendlier tone going forward.

If you reach an impasse, just move on. There's plenty to talk about!