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#1 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#2 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
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#3 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -
- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for. So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#4 |
Pilgrim Soul
Join Date: May 2004
Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle...
Posts: 9,461
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What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace |
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#5 | |||
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
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Last edited by Moonraker; 08-15-2014 at 01:18 PM. |
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#6 | ||
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general. Quote:
There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#7 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
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#8 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,515
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![]() Now your questioning the omniscience of the author regarding his plot and his intentions?
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#9 | |
Gruesome Spectre
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Heaven's doorstep
Posts: 8,039
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Music alone proves the existence of God. |
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#10 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#11 |
Banned
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 112
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I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.
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#12 | ||
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 67
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I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar. Quote:
The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected. |
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#13 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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#14 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: The wide blue yonder beyond this dimension
Posts: 19
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You would be correct. Remember which book was written first.
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"It is everywhere. It is everything. Its scales glisten in the bark of trees. Its roar is heard in the wind. And its forked tongue strikes like... *lightning strikes* whoa! Like lightning!"-Merlin, Excalibur(1981) |
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#15 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Henneth Annûn, Ithilien
Posts: 462
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All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.
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"For believe me: the secret for harvesting from existence the greatest fruitfulness and the greatest enjoyment is - to live dangerously!" - G.S.; F. Nietzsche |
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