Gandalf, Moria, and Arrest

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

The orc one fears was with reference to them being present in Moria, possibly. I was referring to orcs hunting the Company, having been spotted by Legolas as being only a few miles behind and tracking them. Wolves presented no more than an annoying choir like need for Gandalf to unwillingly use his Maiar powers to quench the fire.

I doubt that the wolves have been "presented no more than an annoying choir" as Gandalf said of them, "who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?" These are wolves, rather than orcs, spotting/hunting the Company and it does not seem to me that Gandalf regards them as "an annoying choir". Not to mention the dual possibility that, "where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." So instead of your scenario with "orcs hunting the Company" there in Hollin, it was rather wargs and Gandalf inquired how could any of them now wish to continue on the same course with wargs on their trail. According to you Gandalf could have easily dealt with them so his reluctance would be unnecessary. But if we are to believe the story rather than what one may project into the story Gandalf had no inclination to continue on the same path with wargs chasing them.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I doubt that the wolves have been "presented no more than an annoying choir" as Gandalf said of them, "who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?" These are wolves, rather than orcs, spotting/hunting the Company and it does not seem to me that Gandalf regards them as "an annoying choir". Not to mention the dual possibility that, "where the warg howls, there also the orc prowls." So instead of your scenario with "orcs hunting the Company" there in Hollin, it was rather wargs and Gandalf inquired how could any of them now wish to continue on the same course with wargs on their trail. According to you Gandalf could have easily dealt with them so his reluctance would be unnecessary. But if we are to believe the story rather than what one may project into the story Gandalf had no inclination to continue on the same path with wargs chasing them.

But in reality, when Gandalf does call on his Maiar powers, willingly or not, do wolves stand a chance with him? If you then add orcs to the equation alongside wolves (as in the Hobbit), then that is another question. In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

Why would Aragorn even contemplate arresting Gandalf when it appears that going through Mordor was not out of their equations anyway?

They did not know who or what was there, be it friend or foe. The impression you give is that they should never go there, and that Gandalf would have been forbidden to venture there by the Council, as if they knew they would encounter a Balrog.

Aragorn could not have arrested Gandalf unless he had the soldiers at hand there and then ready to do so. But at a later date he may well have brought the subject up formally in Gondor, as he did with the Gondor guard who broke the law on leaving his post to save Faramir, but he was pardoned. Also, whilst there was fierce disagreement between the Company on going to Moria, it fell just short of mutiny, thanks to the appearance of wolves. It was Boromir who risked stirring mutiny above all.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -

- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for.

So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.

[Mithalwen]

What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Basically one important point regarding this whole thing -

- the main point of the quest with the Ring was to destroy Sauron not by power; it was a manifestation of rejecting any form of control. Starting to arrest people or exercising any form of control would be totally against the spirit of the whole "operation" and what the Free People stood for, or what they decided they were standing for.

So from that also follows, if we go down the line of talking about arrest, Aragorn should have first arrested Elrond and co. for deciding on such a ridiculous plan and putting the Ring into unnecessary risk by sending it to Mordor in the first place. Arguments had been put forward on the Council, making it clear that it was an incredibly risky option, and if there ever was a time for arresting someone, it might just as well been there. If Aragorn had been up to claiming his kingly power and arresting people for treason or endangering the fate of Middle-Earth, he would have probably agreed with Saruman the same way Boromir did at the Council: the best course is to claim the Ring, or at least keep it hidden. The madmen who wanted to run with it right into the heart of Sauron's realm should be arrested, in terms of public safety, to prevent them from doing anything crazy that could have cost the lives of thousands.

Elrond did not make the decision alone to send the Ring to Mordor, that was also the decision made by Aragorn and Gandalf, and in principle even Boromir agreed (though in his mind he obviously had reservations). An arrest could only be even considered if somebody within the company committed what could widely be agreed as mutiny or treason, and not just because Denethor only wanted the Ring hidden in Minas Tirith. Bormomir ultimately did commit treason to the cause of the quest, and Saruman before him. Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off, which Aragorn overruled.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

What is more, surely Elrond and Cirdan should have arrested Isildur and forced him to destroy the ring. To reference another thread, this is a n aspect where understanding of Tolkien's Catholicism may be useful. It is about free will and it's proper exercise, not imposing and enforcing laws and hierachy.

Isildur could indeed have been put on trial for not getting the job done of destroying the Ring. But having the willpower in sending the Ring into the fire, as everyone knows, is easier said than done. He would have been pardoned.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

Gandalf was pushing the patience of Aragorn and Bormomir to the limits in suggesting that Moria was the route they should take. Gandalf even wanted to take this route from the off.

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

'I will follow your lead now--if this last warning does not move you. It is not of the Ring, nor of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!'

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

But the reluctance of Aragorn and Boromir was in neither case a reflection of a lack of confidence in Gandalf. Boromir simply knew Moria as a name of ill repute, and preferred a route that was more known to him and would get him to Gondor faster.

Aragorn's fear was for Gandalf, not the Quest in general.

FOTR A Journey In the Dark

There was no thought that Moria would put the Ring in any particular danger, no more than it was already. So Gandalf had done absolutely nothing that would warrant "arrest", or even choosing a new leader.

I think Tolkein made an error here. He is implying that Aragorn can forsee Gandalf's doom by entering Moria, when in reality it is more likely that any of the Company were in greater peril, not having any supernatural powers themselves. If Aragorn knew Gandalf was a Maiar, why would he forecast his doom?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I think Tolkein made an error here.

Now your questioning the omniscience of the author regarding his plot and his intentions?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I think Tolkein made an error here. He is implying that Aragorn can forsee Gandalf's doom by entering Moria, when in reality it is more likely that any of the Company were in greater peril, not having any supernatural powers themselves. If Aragorn knew Gandalf was a Maiar, why would he forecast his doom?

If you're going to say Tolkien was wrong, and use that to bolster your point, there's no need in discussing this further.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

Originally Posted by Moonraker

In the Hobbit, Tolkein suggests Gandalf would have died after leaping off his pine tree and into the crowd of orcs and their spears.

[Moonraker]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

You just used The Hobbit as part of your argument that the orcs had a better chance of beating Gandalf. Since we are both using this source, there is no need for you to dismiss it now, especially as it has been used in your arguments.

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I disagree.

I think it is important to note the difference between the eternal and immortally wise Olorin the Maia (Maiar is plural, Maia singular) and Gandalf the Wizard/Istar. Tolkien states in Unfinished Tales that the bodies of the Istari are real bodies, not just physical forms that the Maiar and Valar habitually wore to interact with the Children of Iluvatar.

"For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain..."

[...]

... the Istari, being clad in bodies of Middle-earth, might even as Men and Elves fall away from their purposes, and do evil, forgetting the good in the search for power to effect it. [...] For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. Thus by enduring of free will the pangs of exile and the deceits of Sauron the might redress the evils of that time." (Unfinished Tales: The Istari)

Let's look at these points. The bodies of the Istari could hunger, thirst, be slain, they forgot much of their wisdom and knowledge they had in their lives as Maiar in Valinor, and beforehand, and they could even fall into mortal sin from ignorance, fear, lust for power, etc... These were real bodies, that their incorruptible ëalar forms inhabited in a fashion similar to the fëar of the Mirröanwi inhabit their hröar. I'm fully of the opinion that Gandalf could have been slain by the wolves, or the Orks, or Gandalf could even have starved to death in the dungeons of Dol Guldur or died of exposure or thirst in his travels in Middle-earth, had he not taken care. Was he hardier than he looked? Definitely. He could probably survive being deprived of food or water longer than a man of his apparent age, perhaps even better than most Men, maybe even as well as Elves. But could he starve to death or die of dehydration? I think so. Could a Warg have ripped his throat out and would he have bled to death? I'm sure. It didn't happen, because Gandalf had the skills and power to prevent it, but it could have happened.

The difference between Olorin and Gandalf is pretty big, in my opinion. Gandalf, being embodied in a physical body that was his own and not just a fancy meat-suit he fabricated for himself, was subject to hormones and aching joints and adrenaline and being cranky because he was cold or hungry. He could forget spells and get frustrated and irritable because of it. Olorin was not subject to these same problems. Gandalf had much stricter limits on his authority and power than Olorin did, and Gandalf was much more easily slain than Olorin was. The two identities are distinct, though obviously intimately connected.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I actually think this was just an inconsistency with the true nature of Gandalf as a Maiar from the Hobbit to the Lord of the Rings. I don't believe anything but a Maiar could have killed Gandalf the Grey, and a powerful one at that.

I have to disagree. Sauron, while bearing the One Ring was defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil the Tall. An Elf and a Dúnadan. Hardly Maiar themselves.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

Sauron himself came forth: and he wrestled with Gil-galad and Elendil, and they both were slain, and the sword of Elendil broke under him as he fell. But Sauron also was thrown down

Originally Posted by FotR; The Council of Elrond

I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad and Elendil fell, and Narsil broke beneath him; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Gilgalad and Elendil are slain in the act of slaying Sauron.

These are some of the references to Sauron dueling with an Elf and Dúnadan and both parties killing each other, like what happened with Gandalf and the Balrog. I'd say it's possible that Gandalf could be killed with weapons these guys possessed.

[Smug the Fabulous]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

I get the feeling in the Hobbit Tolkein doesn't bill Gandalf as a Maiar, only a wizard, who could indeed be harmed by ordinary weapons.

You would be correct. Remember which book was written first.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Moonraker

But in reality, when Gandalf does call on his Maiar powers, willingly or not, do wolves stand a chance with him? If you then add orcs to the equation alongside wolves (as in the Hobbit), then that is another question.

All 14 of them were already trapped before the orcs got there. So Gandalf with 12 Dwarves and a Hobbit were already out of the frying pan and into the fire before the orcs got there. You ask if the wolves stand a chance against Gandalf, the wolves had Gandalf trapped when orcs were not there, and Gandalf was not alone, he had 13 companions with him. So yes, I do think the wolves stood a chance against him.