Ori's writing - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Alfirin · 09-10-2014, 08:01 PM

Ok so you DO use Tengwar to write Westron. Thanks, that clears a lot up.

It sounds like the book of Mazabul was probably written in both' That Gandalf specifies Ori's bit is in Tengwar indicates there are bits that are not.

In fact, now that I think of it I rather suspect Ori's was one of the few bits that was and was like that because he was writing in a hurry. The older parts of the book, from when the Dwarves ruled probably ARE in Kuzdul, as would befit a history of Moria. As a book designed to be a chronicle of the kingdoms history, the scribes would probably REQUIRE it be written in the Ancient Runes of their people (much as some official scientific papers (like the one describing a new species) are still written in Latin (or Greek, or Hebrew). On the other hand, Ori's notes would be more along the lines of a quick scribble. In which case, he probably WOULD use Tengwar since it is curvier, and therefore probably a bit faster to write in (much as many people can write in cursive faster than they can print) It would be a bit like the situation in Dynastic Egypt. Hieroglyphics were really more for monuments and official documents. For day to day messages, a scribe would be using Heiratic (or later Demotic) Egyptian which is much simpler.
And I can sympathize, Galdriel55 . I still remember my sister breaking down in tears when, as part of learning French in high school, she decided to bring in the copy of Babar our Grandfather brought back from Paris where he was over there in WWII to read to the class....and finding she couldn't because Jean de Brunhoff wrote all the text in Babar in his own cursive (actually I think the books STILL is printed that way; I never checked) Or when I tried to read a 1920s or so book in German, from the time when it was still common to print them in Gothic/Blackletter script ( I can't read German anyway, but with a modern one I probably could have looked up enough words to make it out)

Galadriel55 · 09-11-2014, 06:21 AM

Just a small tangent about the Common Tongue:

I may be confusing things and missing a few details, but did the Hobbits not also speak it (and therefore write it)? Did they also use Tengwar? If so, did Bilbo not have to lean the alphabet when he studied Elvish (and taught it to Frodo)?

Mithalwen · 09-11-2014, 07:29 AM

The actual letter forms he probably knew but he may have had to learn to apply them to different sounds. I don't think hobbits would have developed their own writing system.

Alfirin · 09-11-2014, 09:06 AM

I also seem to noticed that when Hobbit writing is shown, it often appears to be a different, somewhat, shorter chubbier form of writing than the form most elves seem to prefer. Assuming this is actually the case (as opposed to a flourish by Tolkien or one of the later interpreters) Bilbo might not have recognized them when learning Elvish (again sort of like learning cursive after print, or "casual" Hebrew after the formal kind)

09-11-2014, 06:21 AM	#2
Galadriel55 Blossom of Dwimordene Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The realm of forgotten words Posts: 10,466	Just a small tangent about the Common Tongue: I may be confusing things and missing a few details, but did the Hobbits not also speak it (and therefore write it)? Did they also use Tengwar? If so, did Bilbo not have to lean the alphabet when he studied Elvish (and taught it to Frodo)? __________________ You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera

09-11-2014, 07:29 AM	#3
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,460	The actual letter forms he probably knew but he may have had to learn to apply them to different sounds. I don't think hobbits would have developed their own writing system. __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

09-10-2014, 08:01 PM	#1
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	Ok so you DO use Tengwar to write Westron. Thanks, that clears a lot up. It sounds like the book of Mazabul was probably written in both' That Gandalf specifies Ori's bit is in Tengwar indicates there are bits that are not. In fact, now that I think of it I rather suspect Ori's was one of the few bits that was and was like that because he was writing in a hurry. The older parts of the book, from when the Dwarves ruled probably ARE in Kuzdul, as would befit a history of Moria. As a book designed to be a chronicle of the kingdoms history, the scribes would probably REQUIRE it be written in the Ancient Runes of their people (much as some official scientific papers (like the one describing a new species) are still written in Latin (or Greek, or Hebrew). On the other hand, Ori's notes would be more along the lines of a quick scribble. In which case, he probably WOULD use Tengwar since it is curvier, and therefore probably a bit faster to write in (much as many people can write in cursive faster than they can print) It would be a bit like the situation in Dynastic Egypt. Hieroglyphics were really more for monuments and official documents. For day to day messages, a scribe would be using Heiratic (or later Demotic) Egyptian which is much simpler. And I can sympathize, Galdriel55 . I still remember my sister breaking down in tears when, as part of learning French in high school, she decided to bring in the copy of Babar our Grandfather brought back from Paris where he was over there in WWII to read to the class....and finding she couldn't because Jean de Brunhoff wrote all the text in Babar in his own cursive (actually I think the books STILL is printed that way; I never checked) Or when I tried to read a 1920s or so book in German, from the time when it was still common to print them in Gothic/Blackletter script ( I can't read German anyway, but with a modern one I probably could have looked up enough words to make it out)

09-11-2014, 09:06 AM	#4
Alfirin Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 435	I also seem to noticed that when Hobbit writing is shown, it often appears to be a different, somewhat, shorter chubbier form of writing than the form most elves seem to prefer. Assuming this is actually the case (as opposed to a flourish by Tolkien or one of the later interpreters) Bilbo might not have recognized them when learning Elvish (again sort of like learning cursive after print, or "casual" Hebrew after the formal kind)