Hobbit2 - Chapter 05 - Riddles in the Dark

[Estelyn Telcontar]

This chapter feels pivotal to us readers, but I wonder - is that because of the later events of LotR? What significance does Gollum have for this adventure? He seems to be just one of the foes whom Bilbo encounters and overcomes. It's too early in the tale for a climactic peak.

And what about the Ring? In this story it's still just a ring, a small object, though magical. Would Bilbo have been able to accomplish his quest without it?

I see one detail that strikes me as important in Bilbo's growth into his role: here, he gives Gollum his full real name. Later, when he encounters the dragon, he has learned to be more devious.

The riddles have a characteristic that is typical for Tolkien - he takes existing material and changes it. He does that later on for Frodo's song in the Prancing Pony, or in giving the Gaffer's version of proverbs. In the Annotated Hobbit, Anderson points out that several of the riddles are put into rhyming form, which is not typical for the original form.

How significant do you think this chapter is? Do you remember your reaction upon first reading it?


(Previous discussion)

[Tuor in Gondolin]

I confess I don't quite see the need Tolkien felt to rewrite this chapter for LOTR. Must reread The Illustrated Hobbit.

[Galadriel55]

I was very excited for this chapter since I knew the general story as retold in LOTR, and I expected there to be many details that were not mentioned. I was happy that it is very similar, but I was also a bit disappointed that other than the exact words of the riddles there were very few new things.

I think that the most important moment in this chapter is Bilbo's little epiphany about Gollum's life. That moment of pity has a tremendous effect on the plot, not to mention that Bilbo really begins to grow as a character and see the world in its grey shades. Had he realized the importance of that one single instance of taking mercy on someone, he would probably be to frightened of himself to resolve to jump instead of killing Gollum.

[Boromir88]

I think for me, the most fascinating part about reading this chapter again (besides G55's point of Bilbo going from wishing Gollum's miserable death, to the epiphany of pitying him - and thus having a rather important impact to the LOTR story) was the "creatures" in the lake that Bilbo feared:

"So it is a pool or a lake, and not an underground river" he thought. Still he did not dare to wade out into the darkness. He could not swim; and he thought, too, of nasty slimy things with big bulging blind eyes, wriggling in the water. There are strange things living in the pools and lakes in the hearts of Mountains:...Even in the tunnels and caves the goblins have made for themselves there are other things living unbeknown to them that have sneaked in from outside to lie up in the dark. Some of these caves, too, goo back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still there in odd corners, slithering and nosing about.~Riddles in the Dark

What was neat about this, is not only the injection of vague creepy creatures slithering about in mountains, long before goblins ever came there, but the striking connection to Gandalf's "nameless things" he describes in TTT:

"We fought far under the living earth, where time is not counted...They were not made by Durin's folk, Gimli son of Gloin. Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he."~The White Rider

It was just a fascinating moment reading the chapter, "ahh nameless things!" It made me wonder whether this was another "fortunate accident" where Tolkien was unconsciously drawing from The Hobbit, while he was writing Gandalf's reference to nameless things gnawing at the world.

[Galadriel55]

Good point, that, Boro! Nice reference!

I'm wondering, what are people's favourite riddles? Mine, by a far shot, is the one about time:

This thing all things devours:
Birds, beasts, trees, flowers;
Gnaws iron, bites steel;
Grinds hard stones to meal;
Slays king, ruins town,
And beats high mountains down.

[jallanite]

When Tolkien revised this chapter he let stand:

I don’t know where he came from nor who or what he was.

Tolkien need only have changed it to:

Who knew where he came from or who or what he was?

Oddly, Tolkien in later talking of Gollum’s life above ground and his teaching his grandmother to suck eggs indicates even in the first version of this chapter far more knowledge of Gollum than his original claim to know nothing permits. Perhaps he ought to have instead changed that sentence to:

Who then could claim to know where he came from or who or what he was?

The word then would have provided a hint of later knowledge about Gollum which would make have made credible Tolkien the narrator’s surmises about what Gollum is thinking.

This will be a difficult chapter to film because it occurs in pitch darkness until Bilbo comes to the goblin gate with light coming through a crack. I expect Jackson will change it as he did in the Lord of the Rings showing dim light streaming into Gollum’s cavern from above.

A more accurate technique would be to display the screen area black with only Bilbo permanently visible in back-and-white and the floor close to him with Gollum being dimmer and flickering in and out to the tempo of his voice, his glaring green eyes alone being always visible except when Gollum blinked. The audience would understand that we were being shown Bilbo according to Bilbo’s self-image and the lake and Gollum according to Bilbo’s imaginings.

Tolkien claims that Gollum's eyes really glowed, for example:

Bilbo could see the light of his eyes palely shining from behind.

In fact animal eyes only reflect light, say from a camp fire. One may suspect that Gollum’s unusual glowing eyes are an otherwise unmentioned effect of being a possessor of the Ring for such a long time.

This chapter is the only place in The Hobbit where the word orcs appears by itself where Tolkien writes (bolding mine):

… not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains, go along at a great speeds stooping low with their hands almost on the ground.

Of course the name of the sword Orcrist contains the word orc.

Tolkien is careful to put Bilbo barely in the right in keeping the Ring. Bilbo finds the Ring on his own, unrelated to Gollum. Bilbo is under no compulsion to tell Gollum anything including what he has in his pocket. Gollum attempts to physically attack Bilbo at that point. Tolkien the narrator assumes, although he really cannot know, that Gollum was already planning to attack Bilbo as soon as Gollum had lost the contest, a full breaking of the rules.

Angry at Bilbo’s delay in presenting his last riddle, Gollum demands it vigorously, but uses the word question instead:

It’s got to ask uss a quesstion, my preciouss, yes, yess, yesss. Jusst on more question to guess, yes, yess.

So he perhaps has no reason to complain when he gets a question instead of a proper riddle.

That Gollum at the time had accepted Bilbo’s pocket question as a proper riddle binds Gollum to continue to accept it as a proper riddle. In folklore riddle contests often the so-called riddles are really questions. In giving two answers for his third guess, Gollum is definitely cheating. Here Bilbo had the option to call the answer a cheat, but since both answers were wrong he did not.

[Kath]

I think this chapter does stand out as being pivotal more because of our knowledge of later events. For Bilbo, however, even without the prior knowledge of everything the Ring is and the things that happen as a result of him finding it, it is still an important moment for him. As a result of gaining the Ring he escapes the goblin cave - a feat that would have been largely impossible without it! So Bilbo is going to feel pretty attached to that Ring as to his view it's pretty much saved his life.

From now on he's got a safety blanket in a way as well. Not for adventures like being stuck in a tree and slowly roasted perhaps, but in most of his future adventures knowing he has the Ring must then be a comforting thought and encourage him to be braver. Bilbo clearly becomes a much stronger individual through the book, and while that will be due to being away from home and thrust into strange situations, I think the Ring also has this positive effect.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

I confess I don't quite see the need Tolkien felt to rewrite this chapter for LOTR. Must reread The Illustrated Hobbit.

I know this is a bit of a revival of the topic, but in the original version of the chapter, Gollum willingly bets the ring on their riddle competition, which was in huge contrast to his character in LotR. It also clashes with the lore of the ring, as well, as there is no way that a being who had had possession of such an item for that amount of time could just give it up. It would not be possible to do such a thing because of the nature of the ring, and so it was revised that he dropped the ring somewhere without noticing.
While you can say that he would be so obsessed with keeping the ring on him at all times, I think that he would have let his guard down after facing no threats to his precious for a long time.
The revision was most necessary in order to keep consistent with the rest of the lore surrounding Gollum and the Ring. I'm pretty sure we'd rip the chapter apart otherwise for how non-canonical it would feel.

[Tar-Jêx]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Tolkien claims that Gollum's eyes really glowed, for example:
Bilbo could see the light of his eyes palely shining from behind.

Gollum underwent natural evolution after being in darkness for an unspecified amount of time.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Tar-Jêx

I know this is a bit of a revival of the topic, but in the original version of the chapter, Gollum willingly bets the ring on their riddle competition, which was in huge contrast to his character in LotR. It also clashes with the lore of the ring, as well, as there is no way that a being who had had possession of such an item for that amount of time could just give it up. It would not be possible to do such a thing because of the nature of the ring, and so it was revised that he dropped the ring somewhere without noticing.
While you can say that he would be so obsessed with keeping the ring on him at all times, I think that he would have let his guard down after facing no threats to his precious for a long time.
The revision was most necessary in order to keep consistent with the rest of the lore surrounding Gollum and the Ring. I'm pretty sure we'd rip the chapter apart otherwise for how non-canonical it would feel.

While I agree with you about the chapter's revision, and that it was necessary, Gollum didn't drop the Ring. Gandalf clearly said to Frodo that the Ring voluntarily left Gollum, the reason being that the latter wasn't going to voluntarily leave the Misty Mountains. Therefore, it was better for the Ring to leave Gollum, to be picked up by someone more suitable, such that it might eventually get back to Sauron. Of course, it was picked up by Bilbo...

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

While I agree with you about the chapter's revision, and that it was necessary, Gollum didn't drop the Ring. Gandalf clearly said to Frodo that the Ring voluntarily left Gollum, the reason being that the latter wasn't going to voluntarily leave the Misty Mountains. Therefore, it was better for the Ring to leave Gollum, to be picked up by someone more suitable, such that it might eventually get back to Sauron. Of course, it was picked up by Bilbo...

Not to mention Gandalf's implication to Frodo that some other force was also at work; it was meant for Bilbo to find the Ring.

[Mithadan]

Setting aside the bridge this chapter presents to the Lord of the Rings, the most significant aspect was that Bilbo learned to be self-sufficient. He did not rely upon Gandalf or the Dwarves to rescue him. Instead, he managed to rescue himself. This is a significant step in the development of Bilbo. After his escape from the caverns under the Misty Mountains, he achieves the self confidence and self reliance to chase away the spiders of Mirkwood and rescue the Dwarves from the dungeons of the Wood Elves. This leads to Bilbo's willingness to enter the Lonely Mountain by himself and later strike the bargain regarding the Arkenstone.

In short, he becomes brave. He becomes a hero rather than comic relief. And in doing so, The Hobbit begins the transition from a children's tale to part of the larger history of Middle Earth. So this chapter could also be considered a significant step in the evolution of Tolkien as an author as well.

[Faramir Jones]

I agree with you here, Mithadan. Bilbo becomes brave, but also resourceful, without which his bravery would count for little. The dwarves start to treat him with respect, after finding out that he escaped the Misty Mountains on his own. When he met them again, they and Gandalf were debating going back to rescue him.

As you said, it's a prelude to him dealing with the spiders in Mirkwood, and successfully rescuing the dwarves from the Elvenkings cells, all warming up to him voluntarily deciding to go and confront Smaug.

The Hobbit certainly becomes a more 'adult' tale from Chapter 5 on, one that Tolkien is able to later integrate into the history of Middle-earth.