The Book of Lost Tales Part I: A Readthrough - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Formendacil · 12-07-2014, 12:19 PM

It's been a couple weeks, which has either given people a chance to catch up or to forget this project completely, but with Thanksgiving passed, let's put another chapter up--"The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr," which is a direct continuation of "The Chaining of Melko" and told by the same teller, Meril-i-Turinqui.

The basic bones of this tale are much the same as the later version of the tale, though with the big context-changer introduced in "The Chaining of Melko": the fact that the Elves waken AFTER Melko's imprisonment. This changes the context of their arrival and allows Tolkien to make it seem more surprising and wonderful to the Valar. Perhaps it's the season, but this reminded me a little bit of Christmas, with the Valar playing the roles of both the choirs of angels AND the inhabitants of the world, to whom the Eldar (collectively the "Son of God") are born.

And the dual role of the Valar has a parallel in the dual revelation of the Elves' coming: the direct knowledge granted to Manwë and the "discovery" made by Palúrien and Oromë. Christopher Tolkien thinks this a deficiency: he says in his commentary "The story of Oromë's coming upon the newly awakened Elves is seen to go back to the beginnings ... but its singular beauty and force is the less for the fact of their coming being known independently to Manwë, so that the great Valar did not need to be told of it by Oromë." I'm not entirely sure I agree with this assessment, but it does highlight a couple of things:

1. Tolkien is being careful to safeguard the preeminence of Manwë. Like All-seeing Zeus or Odin-who-has-drunk-of-the-well-of-wisdom, Manwë's knowledge must be superior to the rest of the Valar. Perhaps this is the real element that counterbalances Manwë against Melko: Melko may have the power, but he lacks the knowledge.

2. CT is certainly right, whether or not it's weakened by Manwë's independent knowledge, to say that there is singular beauty and force to Oromë's discovery of the Elves--at least in my opinion. The excitement that courses through Valinor (including the second star-making) is palpable and much stronger than in the more clinical version seen later. The celebration is underlining with a touch of foreboding in the detail that this is day Melko is released from Angaino--a detail not possible in the later story, when Melkor's imprisonment follows a different timeline, and his release is changed to darken the years of the Eldar in Aman.

The major change--other than the immediacy of the tale--that I note is the fact that the earlier story lacks the "genealogical" detail of the later text--for good reason. Finwë has yet to acquire any descendent other than Turgon, Tinwë (the later Elwë) has no Olwë--though In(g)wë's family, as I've noted before is actually fuller in the original version--and the later multiple divisions of the Teleri into Nandor and Falathrim and Sindar have not yet arisen for the Solosimpi--at least not in as formal a matter. This is a common element of the Lost Tales: a shorter list of names than the later versions, counterbalancing a lusher descriptiveness.

Things to consider:

1.) Why does Ilúvatar wipe the Elves' memories of what came before? Or, rather, what I'm trying to get at: what is there to wipe? Why did they have a prior existence and where was it?

2.) The detail of imagery given about the Kôr is greater here than in any later text, reminding me of CT's comment somewhere in HoME III The Lays of Beleriand, about Nargothrond, where he compares it to Gondolin in the BoLT--and I paraphrase here: "only once, it seems, did my father visit either of these cities in up-close detail." If this is true of Kôr also, is it fair to say that Tolkien seems to have had single-impulse creative motivations regarding his fictional cities?

3.) "Indeed, war had been but held off by the Gods, who desired peace and would not suffer Ulmo to gather the folk of the Valar and assail Ossë." Wait, war? War! Ulmo and Ossë certainly do not care for each other in the later texts, but the idea that the Valar could go to war against anyone other than Melko(r) is really hard to wrap my mind around, even as unrealised possibility.

4.) CT points out in the commentary that the Lonely Isle was much lonelier in the earlier conception, far out to sea between the Great Lands and Valinor, not (as in the later conception) within the Bay of Eldamar. I feel like this SHOULD colour my impression of Eriol's own story--not only has the sundering of the Earth post-Númenor not even been conceived of yet, but reaching the Lonely Isle is not quite the Eärendil-like endeavour I'm defaulting to imagining as a result of my knowledge of the later legendarium.

There are two poems included in the commentary: "Kôr," a poem picturing that city as it was (probably) at the time of Eárendel's arrival, and "A Song of Aryador," recalling those lost on the Great March.

William Cloud Hicklin · 12-07-2014, 01:26 PM

One of the most interesting things about the poem Kor is that (in its first form) it predates the Lost Tales; I'm fascinated by the hints and glimpses of Tolkien's conception ca 1914-16 as revealed in the early poems and lexicons.

The poem does show that one of the very earliest images was that of the mariner wandering through a great but abandoned city- an image T stuck with to the end, even though eventually he needed a different explanation (the Noldor were all at a festival on Taniquetil).

Orphalesion · 12-08-2014, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

3.) "Indeed, war had been but held off by the Gods, who desired peace and would not suffer Ulmo to gather the folk of the Valar and assail Ossë." Wait, war? War! Ulmo and Ossë certainly do not care for each other in the later texts, but the idea that the Valar could go to war against anyone other than Melko(r) is really hard to wrap my mind around, even as unrealised possibility.

Well that brings us back to the point were the Valar back then were still much more like the Aesir and Vanir who were also prone to fight and quarrel. Back then Osse often opposed Ulmo directly and this element never completely vanished. Even later he is mentioned to have briefly turned to Melkor int he beginning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Formendacil

There are two poems included in the commentary: "Kôr," a poem picturing that city as it was (probably) at the time of Eárendel's arrival, and "A Song of Aryador," recalling those lost on the Great March.

I love the Song of Aryador. First of all I always loved the name Aryador, it sounds very beautiful and the "Lost Elves", very romantic in a way.

It's interesting how perilous the journey of the Elves was in the earlier conceptions. Later all Eldar who stay in Endor turn away from the journey willingly (for one reason or the other), but in this early stage many simply got lost.
The shadow folk of Hisilome is (at this point) even considered to have been Teleri (Vanyar) who got lost in the dark woods of Hisilome when marching to board Tol Eressea.
Hisilome was a strange place in this early phase, does anybody else get the idea that at some, probably very early stage it was meant to mean Scandinavia? (at the time when Tol Eressea still later became the British Isles and Earendel had to cross the "wildernesses of Europe") Hilisome back then meant "land of shadows" and Scandinavia is sometimes thought to be related to old Gemanic words for shadow.

And I love the description of the "Peace of Arda" in which the Elves were born. How, without Melkor frost and cold withdrew into the outermost North and all of Arda was in eternal summer. Even the seas were so calm that plants could grow to the very edge of the ocean. It seems a very beautiful world.

And am I the only one who likes the early description of the Solosimpi better than what the Teleri/Falmari became in the Silmarillion? Their dancing and piping along the beaches, their grotto like houses and especially the picture of them preforming dances around pools which they have filled with the gems given to them by the Noldoli.

However what I don't like too much is the idea that all gems, in the whole world were created by the Noldoli of Valinor. Soehow this element seems a bit too fairly tale like and I'm glad Tolkien later changed it to have the Noldor be miners who only occasionally created "magical" gems.

12-07-2014, 12:19 PM	#1
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,328	Chapter V: The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr It's been a couple weeks, which has either given people a chance to catch up or to forget this project completely, but with Thanksgiving passed, let's put another chapter up--"The Coming of the Elves and the Making of Kôr," which is a direct continuation of "The Chaining of Melko" and told by the same teller, Meril-i-Turinqui. The basic bones of this tale are much the same as the later version of the tale, though with the big context-changer introduced in "The Chaining of Melko": the fact that the Elves waken AFTER Melko's imprisonment. This changes the context of their arrival and allows Tolkien to make it seem more surprising and wonderful to the Valar. Perhaps it's the season, but this reminded me a little bit of Christmas, with the Valar playing the roles of both the choirs of angels AND the inhabitants of the world, to whom the Eldar (collectively the "Son of God") are born. And the dual role of the Valar has a parallel in the dual revelation of the Elves' coming: the direct knowledge granted to Manwë and the "discovery" made by Palúrien and Oromë. Christopher Tolkien thinks this a deficiency: he says in his commentary "The story of Oromë's coming upon the newly awakened Elves is seen to go back to the beginnings ... but its singular beauty and force is the less for the fact of their coming being known independently to Manwë, so that the great Valar did not need to be told of it by Oromë." I'm not entirely sure I agree with this assessment, but it does highlight a couple of things: 1. Tolkien is being careful to safeguard the preeminence of Manwë. Like All-seeing Zeus or Odin-who-has-drunk-of-the-well-of-wisdom, Manwë's knowledge must be superior to the rest of the Valar. Perhaps this is the real element that counterbalances Manwë against Melko: Melko may have the power, but he lacks the knowledge. 2. CT is certainly right, whether or not it's weakened by Manwë's independent knowledge, to say that there is singular beauty and force to Oromë's discovery of the Elves--at least in my opinion. The excitement that courses through Valinor (including the second star-making) is palpable and much stronger than in the more clinical version seen later. The celebration is underlining with a touch of foreboding in the detail that this is day Melko is released from Angaino--a detail not possible in the later story, when Melkor's imprisonment follows a different timeline, and his release is changed to darken the years of the Eldar in Aman. The major change--other than the immediacy of the tale--that I note is the fact that the earlier story lacks the "genealogical" detail of the later text--for good reason. Finwë has yet to acquire any descendent other than Turgon, Tinwë (the later Elwë) has no Olwë--though In(g)wë's family, as I've noted before is actually fuller in the original version--and the later multiple divisions of the Teleri into Nandor and Falathrim and Sindar have not yet arisen for the Solosimpi--at least not in as formal a matter. This is a common element of the Lost Tales: a shorter list of names than the later versions, counterbalancing a lusher descriptiveness. Things to consider: 1.) Why does Ilúvatar wipe the Elves' memories of what came before? Or, rather, what I'm trying to get at: what is there to wipe? Why did they have a prior existence and where was it? 2.) The detail of imagery given about the Kôr is greater here than in any later text, reminding me of CT's comment somewhere in HoME III The Lays of Beleriand, about Nargothrond, where he compares it to Gondolin in the BoLT--and I paraphrase here: "only once, it seems, did my father visit either of these cities in up-close detail." If this is true of Kôr also, is it fair to say that Tolkien seems to have had single-impulse creative motivations regarding his fictional cities? 3.) "Indeed, war had been but held off by the Gods, who desired peace and would not suffer Ulmo to gather the folk of the Valar and assail Ossë." Wait, war? War! Ulmo and Ossë certainly do not care for each other in the later texts, but the idea that the Valar could go to war against anyone other than Melko(r) is really hard to wrap my mind around, even as unrealised possibility. 4.) CT points out in the commentary that the Lonely Isle was much lonelier in the earlier conception, far out to sea between the Great Lands and Valinor, not (as in the later conception) within the Bay of Eldamar. I feel like this SHOULD colour my impression of Eriol's own story--not only has the sundering of the Earth post-Númenor not even been conceived of yet, but reaching the Lonely Isle is not quite the Eärendil-like endeavour I'm defaulting to imagining as a result of my knowledge of the later legendarium. There are two poems included in the commentary: "Kôr," a poem picturing that city as it was (probably) at the time of Eárendel's arrival, and "A Song of Aryador," recalling those lost on the Great March. __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.

12-07-2014, 01:26 PM	#2
William Cloud Hicklin Loremaster of Annúminas Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 2,330	One of the most interesting things about the poem Kor is that (in its first form) it predates the Lost Tales; I'm fascinated by the hints and glimpses of Tolkien's conception ca 1914-16 as revealed in the early poems and lexicons. The poem does show that one of the very earliest images was that of the mariner wandering through a great but abandoned city- an image T stuck with to the end, even though eventually he needed a different explanation (the Noldor were all at a festival on Taniquetil). __________________ The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it.