Tom Bombadil

[Zigûr]

To take this more seriously than is necessary, I am reasonably sure (although others may know better) that the term 'Maiar' was not even used by Professor Tolkien to refer to the lesser Ainur until after the composition of The Lord of the Rings. Certainly Gandalf still refers to "Fionwë son of Manwë" in drafts of the confrontation with the Balrog if I recall correctly, which were composed after the Bombadil sections were written (and I believe they were not substantially altered afterwards). In fact I have a rather firm impression that the very concept of the 'Maiar' as we now understand it was not solidified by that point, where there were still 'children of the Valar' and 'folk of the Valar'.

Christopher Tolkien himself observes that the 1958 Valaquenta is "probably where the word Maiar first arose." (Morgoth's Ring) Anyone performing more than a most cursory research into Professor Tolkien's process of composition (for a publication, for instance) would be able to discern this information.

One also cannot help but think that if there was some groundbreaking secret about Bombadil's identity it would not be the same trite, cliché line of speculation which has been proposed (and to my satisfaction at least, refuted) for years and years: "Bombadil is a Maia." How shocking.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

One also cannot help but think that if there was some groundbreaking secret about Bombadil's identity it would not be the same trite, cliché line of speculation which has been proposed (and to my satisfaction at least, refuted) for years and years: "Bombadil is a Maia." How shocking.

That Tom Bombadil is a Maia (or more accurately: an unaffiliated Ainu) is, in my opinion, the only logical in-universe explanation. How is that theory refuted? Not to my knowledge. Its definitely not trite or boring: Ainu are still pretty rare, especially in Middle-Earth. The only problem is the repeated claim that Bombadil is somehow "first": but that can be easily explained away as: either hobbit folklore, that it simply means that he was the first in that particularly part of Arda, of that he maybe snuck past Melkor and actually was the the first (least likely option imo). His form would make a lot of sense in that case: in his burning curiosity and eagerness to experience the world he anticipated the coming elves and humans and clothed himself like the children of iluvatar (or as he perceived them in the music of the ainur); its a bit like Aule and the dwarves (Aule wanted to model his children after the children of Iluvatar, but because, like bombadil, his perception during the music was faulty and flawed the dwarven bodies, and bombadils body, look nothing like an elf or a human. In fact bombadil looks a bit like a dwarf himself: the "misshaping" of the dwarves may not have been Aules fault at all, maybe all the Ainur had a bit of a distorted picture of the children of iluvatar during the music. At the time of their arrival bombadil was maybe already fully incarnated because he lived for ages in that body (eating, drinking, sleeping, living) and could no longer change/correct it or he simply did no longer care (very likely given his character).

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

That Tom Bombadil is a Maia (or more accurately: an unaffiliated Ainu) is, in my opinion, the only logical in-universe explanation. How is that theory refuted?

What you're essentially asking here is to prove a negative: it can't be disproven that he's a Maia but that does not constitute proof that he is one.

There are actually plenty of logical in-universe explanations for what he could be, and none of them require him being a Vala or Maia. First of all let's take a quote from the Valaquenta:

...in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Ea.

So now that we've established that the Valar and the Maiar weren't the only spirits that entered into Ea, let's look at some potential examples of other spirits. Here's another quote, this time from the Ainulindale:

But Manwe was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself many spirits both greater and less, and they came down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwe...

That's example one; here's example two, from Of Aule and Yavanna:

When the Children awake, then the thought of Yavanna will awake also, and it will summon spirits from afar, and they will go among the kelvar and the olvar, and some will dwell therein, and be held in reverence, and their just anger shall be feared.

So right now we have two in-universe examples of candidates for what Tom Bombadil could be that don't necessarily involve him being either a Vala or a Maia. Therefore he doesn't have to be a Maia (and nor do any of the many other beings which it's normally assumed must be one).

[Mithalwen]

http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=13207

A long time ago we did have fun with anagrams. A mixed bag but some gold in there. And for the record my personal title is not a coded confession of a hard drugs habit.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by mhagain

What you're essentially asking here is to prove a negative: it can't be disproven that he's a Maia but that does not constitute proof that he is one.

There are actually plenty of logical in-universe explanations for what he could be, and none of them require him being a Vala or Maia.

I never wrote that he's one of those. "Vala" and "Maia" are job descriptions, but both are Ainur (their "race" so to speak). I think hes an unaffiliated Ainu ... Maybe he was a Maia in the beginning, but it's also possible that he was pretty independent from the start.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

I never wrote that he's one of those. "Vala" and "Maia" are job descriptions, but both are Ainur (their "race" so to speak). I think hes an unaffiliated Ainu ... Maybe he was a Maia in the beginning, but it's also possible that he was pretty independent from the start.

There's a subtle distinction here.

The Ainur were created first and participated in the Music, then they entered into the world at the beginning of time.

That's not necessarily the case for the other spirits. They need not have been created first and they need not have participated in the Music, and this would make them not-Ainur. Since we know these other spirits did exist, they could just as easily have been created as part of the Music (the Ents definitely were; recall Yavanna's "yet it was in the Song ... some sang to Iluvatar amid the wind and the rain").

That makes them neither Ainur nor Children, and - if they were created as part of the Music - they would also have been already a part of the world when the Valar and the Maiar entered into it, which would also nicely satisfy Tom's claim to be "first"/"eldest"/etc.

[denethorthefirst]

That's a good point ... So he's not necessarily an Ainu, but he may be a Spirit (Ealar) that became fully incarnated? It's not as neat as the Ainu-explanation because his origin and purpose is still unclear. If he's an Ainu he has a clear origin and maybe even purpose (shape/build arda and guard the children) even if he's a bit negligent in that regard. Or he is some kind of a rogue/neutral Ainu and came to Arda independently and of his own accord, then he may not identify with the purpose of the other Ainu (but he seems to love the creation, so he can't be completely nonchalant about its fate).

[Zigûr]

To be honest I don't think Bombadil is "anything" really. I don't think there's an "in-universe" explanation that causes him to conform to some other established race/species/whatever.

I think he's just Bombadil.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

If he's an Ainu he has a clear origin and maybe even purpose (shape/build arda and guard the children) even if he's a bit negligent in that regard.

Of course if he wasn't an Ainu then his apparent negligence wouldn't need to be explained away - because he wouldn't be negligent.

I don't see why he even needs to have a purpose within Ea, to be honest - or at least a purpose that's relevant to the main action of the stories that Tolkien was writing.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

To take this more seriously than is necessary, I am reasonably sure (although others may know better) that the term 'Maiar' was not even used by Professor Tolkien to refer to the lesser Ainur until after the composition of The Lord of the Rings.

I believe you are right. The first published mention is, I believe, in Clyde S. Kilby’s book Tolkien and the Silmarillion, published in 1971, which mentions “Melian the Maia”.

You can peruse the first pages of the book Breaking The Tolkien Code in an amazon preview at http://www.amazon.com/Breaking-Tolki...der_1501056883 . The Balrog anagrams are supposedly:

MINE HOLE FALL, HELD LEFT WING

and

WELL DONE, MINE FALL. FLIGHT EH

It reminds me of an encounter with a Tolkien fan on another website who was trying to explain Quenya by translating it into Hebrew using a concordance of Hebrew roots from a family Bible. He was amazed by his results. I tried to convince him that his results were mainly from his forcing the most interpretable results from the concordance which allowed him to pick and chose words, not from anything Tolkien wrote. But the forum administrators banned the fan as posting obvious religious crackpottery before I had come close to convincing him that God was not speaking to him and anyone who knew Hebrew through Tolkien’s Quenya, even though God was not making much sense.

Balfrog, I find, normally posts at The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza where he is credited with 139 posts. His other posts seem to me to be sensible ones. For his post there on Breaking The Tolkien Code see http://www.lotrplaza.com/showthread....et-Hidden-Code . The two responses don’t indicate much interest in the book.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Balfrog, I find, normally posts at The Lord of the Rings Fanatics Plaza where he is credited with 139 posts. His other posts seem to me to be sensible ones. For his post there on Breaking The Tolkien Code see http://www.lotrplaza.com/showthread....et-Hidden-Code . The two responses don’t indicate much interest in the book.

Balfrog's sole other post here is identical to that one. As I said on that thread, I believe we are dealing with an author in self-promotion mode.

[Nerwen]

denethor, it's been been pretty well established that Tom is *meant* to be an enigma, so I don't think it makes much sense to claim that he's "really" any given thing.

Or are you just suggesting this as a way he could *theoretically* fit into Middle-earth? I mean without that being "the answer"?

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

denethor, it's been been pretty well established that Tom is *meant* to be an enigma, so I don't think it makes much sense to claim that he's "really" any given thing.

Or are you just suggesting this as a way he could *theoretically* fit into Middle-earth? I mean without that being "the answer"?

It seems to me that Tom could be a Maia, or perhaps better an Ainu, since the name Maia refers to one of the People of the Valar and that doesn’t fit well with Tom.

Nor do we know in what sense Tom was an Enigma. I can imagine Tolkien quite willing to accept Tom as a creature of the Maia type. The Enigma part would come from how Goldberry and River-woman fit it.

But of course Tolkien did not say, seemingly on purpose. Mahgain’s post points out that beings of the Valar and Maia type are not the only spirits in Tolkien’s Middle-earth.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by jallanite

It seems to me that Tom could be a Maia, or perhaps better an Ainu, since the name Maia refers to one of the People of the Valar and that doesn’t fit well with Tom.

Nor do we know in what sense Tom was an Enigma. I can imagine Tolkien quite willing to accept Tom as a creature of the Maia type. The Enigma part would come from how Goldberry and River-woman fit it.

But of course Tolkien did not say, seemingly on purpose. Mahgain’s post points out that beings of the Valar and Maia type are not the only spirits in Tolkien’s Middle-earth.

There is a difference between pointing out ways that Tom *could* fit into the universe, and claiming any one of them as the actual answer. I am not sure which of those things denethor is doing, which is why I asked him.

[denethorthefirst]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

denethor, it's been been pretty well established that Tom is *meant* to be an enigma, so I don't think it makes much sense to claim that he's "really" any given thing.

Or are you just suggesting this as a way he could *theoretically* fit into Middle-earth? I mean without that being "the answer"?

Yes. (That's the short answer )

Of course I know his real world history. See also my post #59

Originally Posted by denethorthefirst

I think it is quite believable that Elrond forgot about Bombadil, they lived in the same region (the north-west of ME) for roughly 6000 years and maybe met once (maybe only shortly) earlier in that time when Bombadil wasn't as reclusive as later. It's also obvious that they have very different Personalities: why should the worldly, active and engaged leader-politician Elrond "remember" some strange eccentric he met sometime maybe 4000 years ago, when he hasn't seen him since and we take in account everything that happened during that time! Another thing: 6000 years may sound old but compared to Gandalf, Saruman, or even Elves like Cirdan, Galadriel and other Exiles Elrond is rather "young"; everything he knows about the creation and cosmology of ea and arda and a large part of the prehistoric history he knows from second hand sources: of course Bombadil is a "strange creature" for him, Elrond is not all-knowing.
Tolkien didn't explain Bombadil because he understood that a believable mythology needs loose ends and inconsistencies (like the real world Greek and Germanic myths that inspired him - they grew over time and don't always fit together, different parts contradict each other, or make.no sense, there are differences and changes in tone, and so on.)
But there is only one logical in-universe explanation for Bombadil: he has to be an unaffiliated Ainu - nothing else makes sense. The real mistery however is Goldberry. Who is the mysterious "River-Woman"? Just an elven Woman that lived by the River sometime during the great journey westward, or maybe an Ainu of Ulmo that dwelled inside the river and mated with one of the passing Elves (like Melian and Thingol) - eventually her partner died and she returned to Valinor leaving her Daughter with Bombadil?

But whatever his outside history, Ea is supposed to be a fairly consistent world with its own rules and laws. Forget for a moment that were talking about a work of fiction, suspend your disbelief; we are all in middle-earth, learned and cultured Dunedain or Elves: knowing what we do about the cosmology, what would we think about Bombadil? What would be our most logical conclusion regarding his nature? That he must be an unaffiliated/independent Ainu, it's the ONLY in-universe explanation that makes any sense.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

To take this more seriously than is necessary, I am reasonably sure (although others may know better) that the term 'Maiar' was not even used by Professor Tolkien to refer to the lesser Ainur until after the composition of The Lord of the Rings. Certainly Gandalf still refers to "Fionwë son of Manwë" in drafts of the confrontation with the Balrog if I recall correctly, which were composed after the Bombadil sections were written (and I believe they were not substantially altered afterwards). In fact I have a rather firm impression that the very concept of the 'Maiar' as we now understand it was not solidified by that point, where there were still 'children of the Valar' and 'folk of the Valar'.

The concept of the Maiar actually does pre-date Lord of the Rings, although the name "Maiar" itself certainly doesn't.

The precursors first appear in the earliest Annals of Valinor given in HoME4, and are fleshed out a teensy-weensy bit in the Old English versions, but I'll skip over those and jump straight to the second version of these Annals (AV2, in HoME5) where they suddenly appear:

With these great ones came many lesser spirits, beings of their own kind but of smaller might; these are the Vanimor, the Beautiful. And with them also were later numbered their children, begotten in the world, but of divine race, who were many and fair; these are the Valarindi.

There are two main notable things about this passage. First is that the Vanimor are portrayed as an order of beings distinct from the old Children of the Valar concept. Second is that the translation given for Vanimor ("the Beautiful") is the same as that later used for Maiar.

It's possible to trace this passage through subsequent development in the Annals of Aman and it's various revisions, and the conclusion is that the Vanimor are the Maiar: it was only the name that had changed. At the same time the Children of the Valar were dropped.

There are other connections in the AV2 text too, including:

Thereafter the night of the world was beautiful, and some of the Vanimor strayed into Middle-earth. Among these was Melian, whose voice was renowned in Valmar.

The formations Vanimor/Uvanimor and Maiar/Umaiar are also notable.

None of which says anything about Bombadil, of course.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A very interesting JRRT letter on Bombadil has recently come to light, written to fellow Inkling Nevill Coghill shortly after the publication of FR. It was posted on Wayne Hammond & Christina Scull's blog (with Estate permission), and I think it is well worth reading as Tolkien's considered comments on Bombadil to an intelligent and sympathetic reader:

But Tom Bombadil is just as he is. Just an odd ‘fact’ of that world. He won’t be explained, because as long as you are (as in this tale you are meant to be) concentrated on the Ring, he is inexplicable. But he’s there – a reminder of the truth (as I see it) that the world is so large and manifold that if you take one facet and fix your mind and heart on it, there is always something that does not come in to that story/argument/approach.......

More at http://wayneandchristina.wordpress.c...da-corrigenda/