Silmarillion - Chapter 24 - Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the War of Wrath

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Absent from the published Silmarillion are a few lines found in Morgoth's Ring (don't recall which section, either the Annals of Aman or the later Silmarillion) regarding Morgoth's release from Mandos. Manwe is described as being without evil and being unable to understand it. As a result, he believed that Morgoth could be redeemed or rehabilitated.

The same error seems to have been made regarding Sauron after Morgoth's defeat.

Indeed. Giving second chances was apparently hardwired into the Valar. Remember too that Gandalf was ready to pardon and allow Saruman to repent, though in that case an imperfect and merely temporary atonement would seem to have carried much more risk than a backsliding Sauron.

[Faramir Jones]

Thanks for the comments, Inziladun and Mithadan.

The published Silmarillion does say in Chapter 6 that Melkor was first given a provisional pardon by Manwë, and confined to Valmar; but after a while he was allowed to 'go freely about the land'. The reason was that Manwë 'was free from evil and could not comprehend it', knowing that in the beginning, Melkor 'had been even as he; and he saw not to the depths of Melkor's heart, and did not perceive that all love had departed from him for ever'.

I was always amused by the fact that at least two of the Valar weren't taken in by Melkor's act: Ulmo and Tulkas.

John Garth, in Chapter 11 of his Tolkien and the Great War, looked at Tolkien's story 'The Fall of Gondolin', saying of the bronze dragons, fiery dragons, and iron dragons built by Melko for the assault on the city, that 'The more they differ from the dragons of mythology, however, the more these monsters resemble the tanks of the Somme'.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Indeed. Giving second chances was apparently hardwired into the Valar. Remember too that Gandalf was ready to pardon and allow Saruman to repent, though in that case an imperfect and merely temporary atonement would seem to have carried much more risk than a backsliding Sauron.

As you correctly pointed out, Saruman had only gone to the bad for a short time, while Sauron had behaved that way for millennia. By the time of the War of the Ring, the latter was so known for deception that he was called by Gandalf 'Base Master of Treachery'.

[Mithadan]

I found the quote I referred to above: "and it seemed to Manwe that his evil was cured. For he himself was free from the evil and could not comprehend it..." This is found at section 48 of the later Silmarillion.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

As you correctly pointed out, Saruman had only gone to the bad for a short time, while Sauron had behaved that way for millennia. By the time of the War of the Ring, the latter was so known for deception that he was called by Gandalf 'Base Master of Treachery'.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I found the quote I referred to above: "and it seemed to Manwe that his evil was cured. For he himself was free from the evil and could not comprehend it..." This is found at section 48 of the later Silmarillion.

This may be getting a little off-track, but could Gandalf be said to be "free from evil"? Whether he was or not, I don't think he was in any way deceived as to Saruman's potential for repentance. He seems to have offered Saruman the chance, simply because it was "right". Was he just following his Valar higher-ups, who gave a second chance to Ossë, Melkor, and Sauron?

[Mithadan]

Yes, it's off track and may be worthy of a separate thread. Nonetheless, I'll take a shot at this.

Wow. Pure speculation at this point. Gandalf is a Maia affiliated with Lorien, who drives dreams and perhaps insight and understanding of the peoples of Middle Earth. Gandalf is wise and insightful. He can inspire those in need of encouragement. In my view, Gandalf can distinguish between evil and good, not because he is capable of evil, but rather because he is capable of understanding it.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

In my view, Gandalf can distinguish between evil and good, not because he is capable of evil, but rather because he is capable of understanding it.

I agree, and that's in line with Gandalf's obvious ability to get inside Sauron's head, so to speak, and correctly anticipate his thoughts and actions in the War of the Ring.

I think it's worth noting that Sauron wasn't offered a second chance, after all. He himself approached Eönwë after Morgoth's defeat, and asked for pardon. After being told that he had to return to Valinor for a judgement from the Valar, he changed his mind. I do think though that he likely would have been granted a second chance, but under the close eyes of the Valar, no doubt.
Manwë probably would have been even more vigilant with Sauron, after having been fooled by Melkor.

[Faramir Jones]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Whether he was or not, I don't think he was in any way deceived as to Saruman's potential for repentance. He seems to have offered Saruman the chance, simply because it was "right". Was he just following his Valar higher-ups, who gave a second chance to Ossë, Melkor, and Sauron?

It's a good question, to which we've no evidence to give a conclusive answer. In my opinion, I don't think Gandalf would have offered Saruman the possibility of repentance without at least the agreement of the Valar, leaving aside if he received any direct orders from them.