Gandalf’s Possible Inaccuracy in the chapter “The Shadow of the Past”

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Zigûr’s attempted answer seems to me to depend on Gandalf using “Rings of Power” to refer only to Sauronic rings, which I don’t see on further study. And he does not account for Thrór giving up his Ring to Thráin. See #21 in the thread “The Effect of the Great Ring”.

Didn't I argue that Thrór was able to pass on his Ring because he was a Dwarf and not a Man?

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Perhaps Gandalf knew or assumed that, as a Dwarf, Thrór would be more resistant to some of the effects of the Ring, and thus more capable of passing it on to his son?

Also I just argued that "Rings of Power" seems to be a vague term with no rigid definition, which seems to refer to different groupings of Rings from usage to usage. I wasn't trying to give a hard and fast answer and I don't think I can.

[jallanite]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Didn't I argue that Thrór was able to pass on his Ring because he was a Dwarf and not a Man?

That works if you don’t take Gandalf’s words literally. Gandalf says:

It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing, and really done it. He needed all my help, too.

Replace “keeper” with “mortal keeper”. But then someone will point out that Dwarves are mortal too.

For me the problem is the mainly the phrase “alone in history” which suggests any kind of being.

Also I just argued that "Rings of Power" seems to be a vague term with no rigid definition, which seems to refer to different groupings of Rings from usage to usage. I wasn't trying to give a hard and fast answer and I don't think I can.

I would argue that “Rings of Power” refers to any of the “Great Rings” and therefore may be used when Sauronic rings alone are being discussed, something like the word colour which does not refer normally to any particular colour. But at the same time, if I say the sky was dark coloured today, I obviously don’t mean a dark red colour or a dark brown colour or even a dark green colour. I mean dark blue or cloudy.

But if I say “Ring of Power” with no context, I would be understood to mean any one of the 20 Great Rings, not only a Sauronic Great Ring. So when Gandalf says “A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo”, he should be understood to mean any of the Rings of Power, not specifically a Sauronic Great Ring.

I understood you were attempting to show that Ring of Power was possibly comparable to the word corn, which has different primary meanings in U.S. English and British English, that Gandalf might mean Sauronic Ring primarily by Ring of Power, at least on occasion. But my examination of the evidence does not bear this out. Possibly you might present evidence that I had not considered. Note I do not think it valid to interpret the crux passage as evidence. One could more legitimately interpret the crux passage as a slip of the tongue.

I am not challenging you or anyone to find a solution. I don’t believe there is one. You at least have made an attempt.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by jallanite

For me the problem is the mainly the phrase “alone in history” which suggests any kind of being.

Perhaps Gandalf was hyperbolizing combined with a slip of the tongue.

Also, he may not have been thinking of Thrór giving his ring to Thráin during that conversation. Admittedly, the weak point of that argument is it would be hard for Gandalf to not be thinking of his own possession of a ring during that conversation.

[Gothmog, LoB]

I don't see a huge problem there:

1. Gandalf isn't exactly an expert on Ringlore.

2. Círdan and Gil-galad giving away the Three isn't really a problem because the Three were most certainly not used by Galadriel, Gil-galad, Elrond, or Círdan during the Second Age. Thus they wouldn't have had any power over them.

3. Círdan may not have used Narya at all even during the Third Age - or else he might have had problems parting with it. But then, the impression we get is that Narya's main purpose was effecting its wearer's and other people psyches (perhaps originally conceived to fight the inevitable melancholy that would trouble the Eldar over the years?). Círdan most likely had no use of an artifact like that in Lindon where the Eldar usually only came when they were ready to leave Middle-earth anyway. Not to mention that he might have been smart enough to not use the ring even after Sauron had been seemingly defeated.

4. The Seven clearly didn't really work on the Dwarves. They apparently couldn't even prolong their lives or transform them into wraiths. Now, we know that Thrór passed his ring on the Thráin but Thráin did not pass it on to Thorin. Could be that Thrór was stronger than Thráin or that Thrór felt death approaching already or knew that going to Moria with one of the Seven in his possession was too great a risk. In any case, Durin's line must have passed on its ring quite a few times during the ages, and we have no reason to believe that the kings always took the ring from the corpses of their predecessors.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Threadomancy here.

But since it's back from Mandos, I would approach this, as I tend to do, externally: the chapter "The Shadow of the Past" (originally "Ancient History") was one of the earliest written, and although subsequently emended Tolkien wasn't doing so with a fine-tooth comb; moreover, much of the history of the Great Rings (especially the Three) didn't arise until the Appendices, written well after the main narrative and, although Tolkien did attempt some revisions to square things up, this was done in a tearing hurry during the rush to publication 1954-55.

Besides, both Tolkien and his loremaster alter egos (Gandalf, Elrond and Faramir) tend to speak in sweeping generalities which aren't necessarily precise to three decimal places. Is Treebeard or Bombadil the "oldest living thing?" If Gandalf thought it important, he could have added a verbal footnote with all the fine print on Great Ring ownership.

"Ring use may be habit-forming. Gwaith-i-Mirdain Ltd disclaim all liability for damages direct or indirect associated with Ringbearing. All Rings non-transferable (except the Three Rings and/or if the bearer is an Elf, or in accordance with Subparagraph 17(g)(1) 'Dwarf-Lords and their Heirs.' Batteries not included."

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by jallanite

Morthoron’s attempt at explanation I do not understand at all. He asks:

So why would Gandalf confuse Frodo with provisos, quid pro quos, caveat emptors and various other Latin phrases that may or may not have anything to do with what Gandalf was talking about and what he needed to impress upon Frodo so that the Hobbit could achieve his mission?

Gandalf doesn’t do this and no-one, certainly not me, thinks he should.

At the risk of putting words into another poster's mouth: pretty sure he means Gandalf was giving Frodo a simplified version, leaving out unnecessary details- cf WCH's last post.

I believe this will do as an in-story explanation, if one is needed (though I am also inclined to agree it's really an oversight on the part of Tolkien).

[Alcuin]

For my two bits on this – FWIW, that is –

I’m inclined to agree with a number of points:

• Hammond and Scull’s assertion,

  …its keeper never abandons it. At most he plays with the idea of handing it on to someone else’s care – and that only at an early stage, when it first begins to grip. But as far as I know Bilbo alone in history has ever gone beyond playing and really done it. – This is true of the One Ring, but not of all Rings of Power, of which Gandalf seems to be speaking generally. Celebrimbor gave away the Three Rings. Círdan gave his Ring to Gandalf, Gil-galad (when dying) gave his to Elrond, and Thrór gave his Ring to Thráin.

• “[T]he Three are not ultimately comparable in most ways with Rings of Power as Gandalf meant in the context of his conversation with Frodo.” (Inziladun).
  
• “all the ‘Rings of Power’ were forged based on some sort of design contrived by Sauron and that Sauron himself had a hand in the forging of the One and all the others, except the Three which Celebrimbor himself made. Even though Sauron had no hand in the forging of the Three it still had his imprint in design. I think therefore all of the other Rings, like the One, would have the same or similar effects on mortals, excluding the Dwarves. The Three, however, not so much but they were linked to the One based on their design so that they could all in some manner control the bearers through Sauron wielding the One.” (Belegorn).
  
  That sounds remarkably like a “back door” or “Trojan” computer malware, doesn’t it?
  .
• “Thrór was able to pass on his Ring because he was a Dwarf and not a Man” (Zigûr).
  
• “Gandalf was hyperbolizing” (Kuruharan).
  
  C.f., in the 2005 edition of Reader’s Companion, for p 499 regarding Treebeard as “eldest”, Hammond and Scull quote “Christopher Tolkien’s comment that his father was given to ‘rhetorical superlatives’, such as ‘the oldest living thing’”.
  JRR Tolkien was indeed given to ‘rhetorical superlatives’; we should not be surprised if Gandalf was, too.
  
• “Gandalf was giving Frodo a simplified version, leaving out unnecessary details” (Nerwen).

I’ll add a few other points, just to feed fuel to the fire.

• The Dwarves claimed Celebrimbor gave the greatest of the Seven to his friend Durin III. Later the Elves doubted it; but I’ll bet it’s true. Celebrimbor knew he was in trouble and needed to hide the Rings: he wisely sent the Three out of Eregion altogether. Perhaps because he gave the best of the Seven to Durin, Sauron was inspired to give the other six to Dwarves as well; and then the Nine to Men, who proved easier to ensnare.
• I think Gandalf was attempting to impress upon Frodo the power of a Great Ring, especially upon Mortals and in particular upon Hobbits: that Bilbo could give it up, albeit with a mighty big assist from Gandalf, who acted in this case as ἄγγελος, or angel, to overcome the power of the One Ring, something that perhaps Bilbo on his own could not do. In this regard, Tolkien wrote to Michael Straight, editor of New Republic in Letter 181,

  [Gandalf's] function as a “wizard” is an angelos or messenger from the Valar or Rulers: to assist the rational creatures of Middle-earth to resist Sauron, a power too great for them unaided.

  You are of course free to believe that Bilbo gave up the One Ring entirely upon his own or only with the assistance of Gandalf; I am inclined to believe it was only with the assistance of Gandalf. Frodo was later unable to give it up; Sam Gamgee did surrender it, willingly, to Frodo: but this was due in large part, I think, to his loyalty to Frodo, and to his simplicity of spirit: In that simplicity of spirit, he saw through the deceptions of the Ring when it tempted him to become “Samwise the Strong”, a test Boromir failed without ever wearing the Ring, a test with which Galadriel struggled even after millennia of contemplation and introspection.
• The Rings were never meant for Mortals in the first place. The Noldor of Eregion were trying to hold back the effects of time. Mortals turned invisible when they wore the Rings; I argue there is no reason to believe Elves did, but every good reason to believe they did not.
  • Tolkien himself tells us the Seven did not render Dwarves invisible or give them longer lives.
  • The Three certainly did not convey invisibility: Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel were all visible, and we know Galadriel was wearing Nenya at the Mirror of Galadriel.
  • The Elves wanted to stop the process of fading, whereby their bodies (hröar) were consumed by their spirits (fëar). If the Noldor were trying to prevent fading, why in blue blazes would they invent a device to make them invisible? The two goals are contradictory, at cross-purposes with one another.
  • However, Sauron’s methods apparently entailed some sort of necromancy. (He was, after all, The Necromancer.) If the Noldor under Sauron’s tutelage used necromantic techniques to accomplish their goals, then the Rings were drawing on the power of the Unseen, but in a most unwholesome way (excepting the Three).
    
    Men, though, including Hobbits, might be easily overwhelmed, and instead of “tapping” into the power of the Unseen, move altogether into the Other Side, which they perceived as a wraith-world because they entered it by means of necromancy.

Gandalf must explain all this quickly and decisively to Frodo, keeping in mind that his goal from the start is to convince him, above all, do not put on the Ring. Bear in mind also that he cannot say, “O, by the way, I have Narya, one of the Three, and here are some Ring-bearer tips you should know…” No, no! he’s going to scare the pants off Frodo! A little after telling him, “It may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it,” Frodo blurts out, “O Gandalf, best of friends, what am I to do?” Frodo is panicked! “You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?” And Gandalf can not take the Ring: it’s too dangerous for him. We would say, Frodo doesn’t know how to “turn it on”: he isn’t powerful enough to use it; for Gandalf, it’s a deadly trap. Poor old Frodo has the Radioactive Potato.

Finally, Frodo says, “…I must keep the Ring and guard it, at least for the present, whatever it may do to me.” This is exactly what Gandalf wants! And the wizard replies, “Whatever it may do, it will be slow, slow to evil, if you keep it with that purpose.”

So he didn’t give Frodo all the details. All the better. Ever read a contract? An End User License Agreement? “The party of the first will accede to the party of the second, except at the aforementioned times and in those places enumerated in Addendum C-2…” Frodo didn’t need the details. He needed to know that he was, in effect, living with the nuclear football hanging around his neck, and it had a (fortunately slightly defective) homing device.