Obscure Topics of the Legendarium

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

But Maedhros waived his claim, so that much is explained I would say. "For Maedhros begged forgiveness for the desertation in Araman; and he waived his claim to kingship over all the Noldor, saying to Fingolfin: ’If there lay no grievance between us, lord, still the kingship would rightly come to you, the eldest here of the house of Finwe, and not the least wise.’"

And I like this explanation for the rest...

And yet, we don't see the High-Kingship of the Noldor passing to Ëarendil, but rather to Gil-galad, who, whatever descent you choose to endorse, is a male-line descendant. I don't buy the age argument, it just seems unconvincing to me; the male-line descent with one exception due to the House of Fëanor being passed over is by far the simplest answer.

And Michael Martinez notes that neither Dior, nor his descendants, ever take the title of Lord of Beleriand or High-King of the Sindar. He is called Thingol's heir, and rules with the authority of expected of the king of Doriath, but is never explicitly given the same titles. Thus, I think we all agree that authority can be inherited through male or female lines, but I think the actual title of High-King is demonstrated only to descend through male-line primogeniture. Saying it might have gone through female lines doesn't really pan out, because it didn't, otherwise Elrond might have become the High-King, as the only male heir of the High-Kings of both the Noldor and Sindar. One can argue he didn't take the High-Kingship because there weren't enough Noldor to use the title, and that argument has merit, but we never see a descendant by female descent taking that title, only wielding reduced or diminished authority usually earned partially by descent, partially by action (Ëarendil, Dior, etc...).

I also don't know where it ever says that Eldarion ruled over the Eldar in middle-earth. Would you mind citing that? My books are packed up right now, so I don't have access to them.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Corsair_Caruso

And yet, we don't see the High-Kingship of the Noldor passing to Ëarendil, but rather to Gil-galad, who, whatever descent you choose to endorse, is a male-line descendant. I don't buy the age argument, it just seems unconvincing to me; the male-line descent with one exception due to the House of Fëanor being passed over is by far the simplest answer.

As I read your response (so far) it seems not to be an objection based on a fault in Solicitr's argument (as he does explain Earendil versus Gil-galad within his theory), it's rather that you find a different argument simpler.

And if I've got that much right... very well

I also don't know where it ever says that Eldarion ruled over the Eldar in middle-earth. Would you mind citing that? My books are packed up right now, so I don't have access to them.

I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men (in The Return of The King), maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

And I think "Solicitr" posts here at the Downs. Not sure though

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps the Elves weren't as systemic in their inheritance laws as we mortals might deem desirable due to the simple fact that they wouldn't have much expectation of inheriting anything. In their mindset, death had to be something of an aberration.

Perhaps they decided the succession on the basis of an ad hocery, "this seems like a good idea."

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by Galin

As I read your response (so far) it seems not to be an objection based on a fault in Solictr's argument (as he does explain Earendil versus Gil-galad within his theory), it's rather that you find a different argument simpler.

And if I've got that much right... very well

Essentially. I just remain unconvinced that the theory you've referenced is an inherently superior interpretation of the extant material. I can't give a reason why it couldn't be true, objectively speaking, but neither does it seem to give me an objective reason as to why my current interpretation is patently incorrect.
Similarly, we could, at this time, not objectively disprove that Noldorin inheritance goes first to brothers before moving on to the next generation, which would prove especially convenient for the "son of Fingon" proponents. We don't have any objective, conclusive evidence to the contrary, but I remain unconvinced that such a conclusion is fact. Which is fine! If there were easy answers, it wouldn't be such a contentious topic, which I think we all agree it is.

Originally Posted by Galin

I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men, maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

And I think "Solicitr" posts here at the Downs. Not sure though

Interesting. I think, personally, to give him formal authority over the Elves of Middle-earth is probably more an interpretive decision than anything with hard support in the text, but I'd be open to listen to more evidence if you find any.

I know Celeborn remained in Middle-earth for some time, as did the sons of Elrond, who were older than their sister, and as males, would have inherited their own authority from their father rather than submitting to that of the mortal son of their younger sister, King though he be of a vast realm. With lords of such age and authority still around functioning as the continuation of the authority of Elrond and Galadriel (whom, admittedly, ruled with Celeborn, though her power and wisdom were undoubtedly greater), it seems to me that Eldarion probably had more respect and acknowledgment of his status as the most powerful Prince (in the more general sense) in Middle-earth, rather than outright authority.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Galin;700969]
I'm guessing that it's based on the admittedly misty reference to Arwen being referred to as Queen of Elves and Men (in The Return of The King), maybe coupled with the choice of her son's name: either "son, descendant of the Eldar" (Eldar-ion), or possibly "Elda-prince" (Elda-rion). I don't recall a specific reference to Eldarion either, about that, but anyway my main reason for quoting these opinions was to explain Gil-galad rather than the scenario after his death.

QUOTE]

I think... my "HoME" is in storage too... that this is in a draft of the Tale of Years for the LOTR Appendices. Since it was superseded in a text published in Tolkien pere's lifetime, I don't personally think it is very strong proof ... though it has been used on another thread, and needless to say, not by me, in an attempt to prove that Arwen is more or less the supreme being

Oh and I agree totally with Kuru regarding Elvish inheritance. Furthermore not all monarchies have strict lines of inheritance in our own world. And in Tolkien's, well on another thread, there was some speculation on Eomer's inheritance given that Theoden's older sisters may well have had children

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Actually, I'm 'solicitr'; and I think there are two theories of Elvish (or Noldorin) succession, either of which could explain the known data, but the "eldest male" theory seems to fit all the data better.

A) The succession can pass via the female line in the absence of a son, but not to a female in her own right.

B) The succession passes to the eldest male member of the Royal House

Theory A explains almost everything, including Finrod's title passing to his nephew rather than his sister Galadriel (older than A&A), Turgon's High-Kingship passing to his grandson Earendil not his daughter Idril, Thingol's Heir being his grandson Dior not his daughter Luthien, etc.

However, A comes a cropper under these 3 circumstances:

1. Gil-Galad is Fingon's son
2. Gil-Galad is Finrod's son
3. Gil-galad is Finrod's nephew or great-nephew

In Case 1, Gil-Galad should have become king after the Nirnaeth, not Turgon. In Cases 2 and 3, Elrond as Turgon's great-grandson, distaff or not, would have had a superior claim to any Finarfinian.

And this is why I tend to favor Theory B. It doesn't matter whose son Gil-Galad is; the succession went to the eldest male of the House of Finwe in Middle-earth (not counting the disinherited Feanorians). Had Nargothrond held out longer than Gondolin, Orodreth would have held the title, no matter how briefly, and even if G-G was Fingon's or Finrod's son.

----------------

Of course, externally one can trace how Tolkien created a knot for himself (cf. the matter of female succession in Numenor): it was a given from the time of the Sketch that Turgon succeeded his brother Fingon, and after that it didn't matter because there was no Gil-Galad and for that matter no Second and Third Ages. Since Turgon's family was pretty much set in stone, Gil-Galad like Galadriel had to be shoehorned in somewhere else thanks to the LR.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

(about Arwen, "Queen of Elves and Men") I think... my "HoME" is in storage too... that this is in a draft of the Tale of Years for the LOTR Appendices. Since it was superseded in a text published in Tolkien pere's lifetime, I don't personally think it is very strong proof ... though it has been used on another thread, and needless to say, not by me, in an attempt to prove that Arwen is more or less the supreme being

Hmm, but it's from Appendix A, The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. Arwen the supreme being?

I thought that was *Ilúvamme rather

Originally Posted by WCH

Actually, I'm 'solicitr'...

That's what I thought. Wasn't wholly positive though

Anyway thanks for the clarification above, and sorry for my mashing up of your opinions earlier.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's worth mentioning that the title of High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth passed into abeyance with Gil-Galad's death, probably since there weren't enough Noldor left to constitute a kingdom; Elrond could have claimed it but never did.

However, by marrying a Finarfinian (Celebrian), their children became the senior, in fact only, descendants of Fingolfin, Finarfin and Thingol all three, meaning that Eldarion (whatever title he claimed) was more supremely royal than any previous ruler in the Great Lands.

[Corsair_Caruso]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's worth mentioning that the title of High King of the Noldor in Middle-earth passed into abeyance with Gil-Galad's death, probably since there weren't enough Noldor left to constitute a kingdom; Elrond could have claimed it but never did.

This is absolutely correct. We have a long history of rightful kings in Middle earth eschewing their birthrights when they lack a kingdom to rule. The Chieftains of the Dunedain avoided the title of King, either of Arnor or Gondor. Thorin II never called himself King until after the death of Smaug. Elrond probably could have been named a king had he pushed for it hard enough, but he (like these other examples) chose not to.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

However, by marrying a Finarfinian (Celebrian), their children became the senior, in fact only, descendants of Fingolfin, Finarfin and Thingol all three, meaning that Eldarion (whatever title he claimed) was more supremely royal than any previous ruler in the Great Lands.

Eldarion represented a union of every royal line blessed by the Valar in recorded history, excluding the dispossessed House of Fëanor: descended from the royal house of the Vanyar via Indis > Fingolfin and Finarfin; descended from Finwe via the same, descended from Fingolfin via Turgon > Idril > Ëarendil > Elrond (> Arwen) and Elros (> Kings of Numenor > Lords of Andúnië > Kings of Arnor and Gondor); descended from Finarfin via Galadriel > Celebrian > Arwen; descended from Olwë via Ëarwen > Galadriel, etc...; descended from Elu Thingol and Melian via Luthien > Dior > Elwing > Elrond, etc...; furthermore, he was descended from all three houses of the Edain.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Just thought of what JRRT coulda done (a non-canonical solution):

Orodreth:
The third child and second son of Finarfin, Rodnor (later called Orodreth for his love of mountains) held the fortress of Minas Tirith as his brother Finrod's deputy during the Siege of Angband. Orodreth was dutiful, soldierly and wise, although his wisdom inclined toward the path of vigilance and defence rather than bold strokes. His skilled and silent scouts ensured that no servant of the Enemy passed the Vale of Sirion unmarked so long as the Siege lasted; and later in Nargothrond the same skill made the Guarded Plain a barrier almost as impenetrable as the Girdle of Melian. He thought the League of Maedhros was folly and sent no army, though he did not prevent Gwindor from leading a company of those Nargothrondrim who would not be left out.

Orodreth wedded very late for an Elda, his duties as Lieutenant of Minas Tirith absorbing all his attention. But after he removed to Nargothrond he had little to do as the King's younger brother, and there he fell in love with and married Aeriel, a lady of the Falathrim.* Their first child, a daughter, Finduilas, was born on the day news arrived of the death of Fingon in Tol-en-Ngaurhoth, which was taken by many as a bad omen. However, it was taken by many likewise as a sign of hope when their son, Finellach, was born in the spring of the year when Beren and Luthien returned to the living, and in which Maedhros had victory (so it seemed) over the Orcs and freed Beleriand for a time.

After the Nirnaeth Orodreth had a dark premonition that Nargothrond would fall, and having something of his brother's foresight understood that the hope of the Noldor lay with the sea and the protection of Ulmo. Therefore he sent his young son to be fostered with his mother's people at the Havens. Alas, Morgoth would sack the Falas before the year was out; but Finellach was among those who escaped with Cirdan to establish a refuge on the Isle of Balar. He would never see Nargothrond or his parents again, and for the rest of his long life preferred to dwell within sight of the Sea. As King in the next age of the world (when he as known more usually by his epesse Gil-Galad) Finellach was seen to be courteous but withdrawn and solitary, opening his heart to none but his foster-father the Shipwright, and taking no wife.

--------------------------
*Aerial was a remote kinswoman of Cirdan and thus of Olwe and Elwe, whose first husband was one of the Noldorin ambassadors Finrod had sent early on to the Sindar, and who brought her home to Nargothrond. However, he was slain in the Bragollach at the side of Gelmir son of Guilin.

It is said that Celegorm's and Curufin's dealings with Orodreth became markedly more scornful after he wed one of "inferior race," as they saw it.