Obscure Tolkien Characters

[Pervinca Took]

I can't remember which of the Lays of Beleriand Tolkien actually finished (if any). Could it simply be that he ended up changing the names later when he wrote the stories in prose form (where/if certain versions of the tales in prose were written after the verse ones) and never went back to finish the verse, so those names didn't end up having a proper backstory? Do any of the above names have sort of 'equivalent' characters in other versions of the tale?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Remember however that a great deal of the "history" was a later ret-con; when Tolkien wrote Chapter II he had no idea what Gil-Galad's story was (and never really wrote any more of it than what Gandalf says there, and Sam's fragment of a poem); the cats of Queen Beruthiel were finally explained- in Tolkien's own mind - long years after the writing of the Moria chapter where Aragorn mentions them.

It's kind of remarkable to think that when Tolkien finished the main narrative of the LR, hardly any of the history even of the Third Age yet existed.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Remember however that a great deal of the "history" was a later ret-con; when Tolkien wrote Chapter II he had no idea what Gil-Galad's story was (and never really wrote any more of it than what Gandalf says there, and Sam's fragment of a poem); the cats of Queen Beruthiel were finally explained- in Tolkien's own mind - long years after the writing of the Moria chapter where Aragorn mentions them.

It's kind of remarkable to think that when Tolkien finished the main narrative of the LR, hardly any of the history even of the Third Age yet existed.

I know. But it is also pretty rare for Tolkien to not develop a character that was previously barely mentioned. The cats of Queen Berúthiel are a good example of a concept that prior to its mention in the LOTR didn't really have much (read: not at all) substance to it until some time later. Of course, one could argue that The Lord of the Rings, being published and read widely across the world, would give a bit of a motivation in developing a background to the character of Berúthiel, for example.

Another character that comes to my mind at this very moment is Torhir Ifant, the author of Dorgannas Iaur, mentioned in The War of the Jewels, but he at least has some semblance of background to him.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

I can't remember which of the Lays of Beleriand Tolkien actually finished (if any). Could it simply be that he ended up changing the names later when he wrote the stories in prose form (where/if certain versions of the tales in prose were written after the verse ones) and never went back to finish the verse, so those names didn't end up having a proper backstory? Do any of the above names have sort of 'equivalent' characters in other versions of the tale?

As far as I am aware, no lay of Beleriand (or 99% of stories he has written, for that matter) was ever finished. One of the most frustrating experiences that happens time and time again while reading Tolkien, is his tendency to develop a certain story, in great detail, and break it off at the most inappropriate place in the narrative - for instance, The Lay of Leithian goes all the way up to the escape of Beren and Lúthien from Angband and their encounter with Carcharoth - you get immersed in a story, wonder what will happen next, and what do you get? An eternal cliffhanger! Of course, there are other, more complete (if brief), versions of the same story; but if you're not lucky enough to own all twelve volumes of HoME, you're in for a threat. But I digress...

As for the 'equivalent' characters...well...I don't know. I wouldn't really wager that Ogbar's spear is Aeglos, and that Ogbar is an alter-ego of Gil-galad, but there was an interesting theory I heard somewhere (I can't remember where) concerning Celeg Aithorn, the legendary sword mentioned in the Lay of the Children of Húrin. It states that it is not an actual sword, but rather a lightning, wielded by Manwë. A bit too deep in the crackpot zone for my taste, but hey, something's better than nothing.

[Orphalesion]

Nan is mentioned in Christopher Tolkien's commentary to the Tale of Beren and Luthien in the Book of Lost Tales. He is described as a "summer giant" in the shape of an elm.
Notes at the end of the BOLT suggest Earendil was supposed to meet "tree giants" during his journey, (which was supposed to be an epic odyssey including many fantastical concepts that never were mentioned again and leading to him battling Ungoliant before finally finding Valinor.

The whole thing sounds like proto-Ents.

The Rodrim was the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond in "Turamba and the Fealoke" that as before Nargothrond itself had a name.

[Arvegil145]

The Rodrim was the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond in "Turamba and the Fealoke" that as before Nargothrond itself had a name.

Good catch. But the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond was rodothlim as far as I can remember.

On the other hand, Tolkien did change, for example, Gondothlim to Gondolindrim, and since the Lays postdate the Lost Tales, it could be that he changed Rodothlim to Rodrim (like Gondothlim to Gondolindrim)

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

Nan is mentioned in Christopher Tolkien's commentary to the Tale of Beren and Luthien in the Book of Lost Tales. He is described as a "summer giant" in the shape of an elm.

Could Nan and Gilim be ents? (though I'm not really sure that an ent would need a sword (Glend))

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Problem there is that the LTs' primitive "caves of the Rodothlim" evolved in the Turin poem into the great fortress of Nargothrond, a new conception with a new name; Rodothlim or variants thereof disappeared. I would use Nargothrim.

(the element (g)rod (from *groto "cave, tunnel") survived into late Sindarin, as in Nogrod and Menegroth, but I doubt generic "cave-dwellers" would have been applied to Finrod's folk).

[Morthoron]

I think Halbarad got a bad break. One of those characters you'd wish to know more about.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

I think Halbarad got a bad break. One of those characters you'd wish to know more about.

Certainly. Halbarad was to me one of the most valiant and obscure characters in the LOTR. Strange that he was never mentioned in The Song of the Mounds of Mundburg".

Additionally, the savior of the world receives little to no mention - Borondir - The Rider of Last Hope - without him Sauron would have surely prevailed.


Tal-Elmar is an interesting character too, as well as Borlas and Saelon in "The New Shadow"

Bladorthin I don't have to even mentioned.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Problem there is that the LTs' primitive "caves of the Rodothlim" evolved in the Turin poem into the great fortress of Nargothrond, a new conception with a new name; Rodothlim or variants thereof disappeared. I would use Nargothrim.

(the element (g)rod (from *groto "cave, tunnel") survived into late Sindarin, as in Nogrod and Menegroth, but I doubt generic "cave-dwellers" would have been applied to Finrod's folk).

I think you misunderstood my point. I was replying to the previous post which said that the name "Rodrim" applies to the inhabitants of Nargothrond (in the earlier stages of writing). I simply corrected the mistake.

But while we're at it - the names "Rodothlim" and "Rodrim" bear a remarkable similarity - one would even think that the name "Rodrim" replaced that of "Rodothlim" at that stage of the writing (or maybe Tolkien was playing with the idea, although I've found no mention of any of the names in the "whetting spell" of Beleg, as CT remarks also).

Again - I noticed the similarity between "gondothLIM" and "rodothLIM" AND "gondolindRIM" and "rodRIM" - last parts of the names indicate belonging to a certain place, city, region, etc.

There is one more thing:

and the glaive of Gaurin whose gleaming stroke
did rive the rocks of Rodrim's hall;

This passages strikes me in one peculiar way: Rodrim's halls. Admittedly Rodrim COULD simply be a character, BUT...It could also refer to a people as a hole.




P.S. Well, I don't want to sound as a narcissistic buffoon, but who ever knows about Ogbar, Celeg Aithorn, Torhir Ifant, etc. I think one could safely (relatively) assume that he's head is buried under a pile of Tolkien related books.

[Orphalesion]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Good catch. But the name of the inhabitants of Nargothrond was rodothlim as far as I can remember.

On the other hand, Tolkien did change, for example, Gondothlim to Gondolindrim, and since the Lays postdate the Lost Tales, it could be that he changed Rodothlim to Rodrim (like Gondothlim to Gondolindrim)


Could Nan and Gilim be ents? (though I'm not really sure that an ent would need a sword (Glend))

You are right! I recited from memory and got it a bit wrong, still it could be a temporary name for the people of Nargothrond...or even for the dwarves?

Id oubt Nan and Gilim are Ents. The Ents were only invented when Tolkien wrote the LOTR. That's why I wrote proto-Ents and even here I made a little mistake. I miss-remembered Earendil meeting "tree people" and "Nan the summer giant who is like an elm" as Earendil meeting "tree giants and Nan, who is like an elm"
So Earendil met Tree People, not Tree Giants

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Another thing: may hap Ogbar, Saithnar, Nargil, Rodrim and Gaurin are the names of PLACES instead of characters?

True! We should like open a thread in Middle Earth mirth were we brainstorm theories about these names and how to fit them into the later mythology.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Orphalesion

You are right! I recited from memory and got it a bit wrong, still it could be a temporary name for the people of Nargothrond...or even for the dwarves?

Id oubt Nan and Gilim are Ents. The Ents were only invented when Tolkien wrote the LOTR. That's why I wrote proto-Ents and even here I made a little mistake. I miss-remembered Earendil meeting "tree people" and "Nan the summer giant who is like an elm" as Earendil meeting "tree giants and Nan, who is like an elm"
So Earendil met Tree People, not Tree Giants




True! We should like open a thread in Middle Earth mirth were we brainstorm theories about these names and how to fit them into the later mythology.

I realize that the Ents are a later concept, but I was simply trying to weld earlier ideas with the later ones.


And besides, we are already brainstorming theories here.