**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**

[Findegil]

Ufedhin's rejection was not only conected to the gridle. Anyhow, if simple knowledge of a way through would have been enough to overcome its protection, the dwarves would not have needed any traitor, as they often had been welcomed guests in Menegroth.
Ufedhin was rejected because the majority of project members found it unprobable that there was a traitor from Doriath to the Dwarves at all.

I also imagin the gridle like to a Labyrinth. But more in the vain of the Old Forest east of the Shire: All ways you could find would lead you out again sooner or later. Only if you were a welcomed guest a way would open for you to go in, and even then it would probably be safer to have a guide.

And in thinking in that direction explains way many members found Ufedhin would not have been succesfull: Coming back with bad intetion against Doriath would lead the trees to force you out again equaly if you had know a former way in or not.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Perhaps. But why would the Dwarves decide to attack a kingdom which they knew was impenetrable?

[Arvegil145]

Also - the matter of Gereth and Evranin (and Nielthi).

You said that they are not valid Sindarin, but could they still be kept nonetheless? I hate losing material from the texts.

[Findegil]

On the one hand, it is not clear that Dwarves did know that a bad intention against the inhabitants would mean that they could not enter Doriath. And the implicit theory behind the Dwarven attack, was that they did know that Thingol would be at that time on his hunt to celebrate the Charcharoth-hunt and they would try and succed to lure him beyond his borders. Once they killed Thingol they tried (probably because they thought that he was responsible for it) and found that the girdle was removed and use that fact.

Gereth and Evranin and Nielthi: To include them would mean to change a fact in the Sindarin tongue as it was when Tolkien last worked on it. Our rules are strongly against it.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Hi all! This is my first post here, and I know I am quiiiite a bit late to the party! That being said, I just want to say, I am absolutely floored by the work that's been done on this chapter in particular, as out of the confusion and chaos has been created a flowing narrative that tells a compelling and vastly improved version of the story in the QS77.

My humble thoughts are almost certainly unwarranted, but I did have a few of them while reading through the text. Most of them are in regards to specific deletions or changes in the texts, as every story decision makes 100% sense to me.

The first one is a relatively minor point, as I assume it is a simple slip.

RD-EX-24 TN Then, remembering the wisdom of {Gwenniel}[Melian] his wife, the king was minded to hearken, and he bade gather it up and cast it into the stream before the gates. Yet even so he might not shake off its spell, and he said to himself: ‘First will I gaze my last upon its loveliness ere I fling it from me for ever.’ Therefore he let wash it clean of its stains of blood in clear waters, and display it before him. Now such mighty heaps of gold have never since been gathered in one place;

At that point, the version where the outlaws are killed has been rejected, so the gold would have no blood on it.

The second is also a minor point where I was confused:

RD-EX-31 <QS77 In those days the Dwarves still came on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over {Gelion}[Duin Daer] at {Sarn }Athrad[ Daer], the [Great ]Ford{ of Stones}, they travelled the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth. But they came now no longer in small parties as aforetime, but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and {Gelion}[Duin Daer] RD-EX-32 {; and they dwelt in Menegroth at such times in chambers and smithies set apart for them}. At that{ very} time great craftsmen of Nogrod RD-EX-33 {were lately come}came into Doriath{; and}[ at] the King’s { therefore summoning them } summons, and he declared to them his desire>.

why are the Dwarves changed from being there to being summoned?

The next point is a very minor instance of awkward phrasing:

RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were more wondrous>.

"were more wondrous" than what? the previous treasure? the use of the comparative "more" here implies a comparison, but none is given. Maybe, "more wondrous than had been thought."

The next is a simple question I had about a name deletion. I know that many of the hastily mentioned Elvish characters had their names removed bc of linguistic issues, but in this passage:

RD-SL-19 <TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs, a kindred of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms}[Belegost].

why was Bodruith removed? Even if this name is not good Sindarin, it does not need to be. We know that the Dwarves took outer names in the language of the people near to their dwellings, and for Belegost this is Ossiriand, Celegrorm, and the lands of Eriador where Nandor and Men live. the name could easily be Nandorin, which would explain the phonetic similarity to Sindarin, while still allowing for an "impossible" Sindarin name form. To delete it anyway seems odd to me.

The next is a question regarding a theme in the Lost Tales that was abandoned largely in later writings:

RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth].

Is this in keeping with Tolkien's later views on the Dwarves? I know some were considered evil, but Thorin dwelt in the Ered Luin near the ruins of Nogrod and Belegost, and these Dwarves were never remotely in league with the Orcs.

The next is a simple grammatical point:

RD-EX-60 Now {is} [when] the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} [grew] faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} [sat] in her bower and foreboding {is} [was] in her heart and eyes.

the "when" in the first line is grammatically incorrect. Leaving it out fixes the sentence.

The next is a terminology that seems suspect to me in the context of the later legendarium:

RD-EX-67 <TN {and Auredhir was} And [Eluréd and Elurín ]were most like to {his} [their] forefather Beren, and all loved {him} [them], yet none so dearly as did Dior; but Elwing the fairy have all poesies named as beautiful as Tinúviel if that indeed may be, yet hard is it to say seeing the great loveliness of the {elfin}[elven] folk of yore.>

I hardly think "Elwing the fairy" is fitting terminology for an Elf queen. Maybe Elwing the Fair?

The next is a minor question:

RD-EX-79 <TN {But} [And] the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now is the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none seek the treasure that {it}[Ascar] guards [near by] nor dare ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.

the last bit describes a present state, when by the third age Duin Daer is long gone and the ford lost beneath the waves, as Lindon is not all of Ossiriand, unless my geography is mistaken.

That was everything I saw, besides a few minor spelling mistakes. I'm honestly still blown away by the amount of work this took, and the cohesion and near perfection of the final product. This is truly a testament to the love people have for these stories.

[Findegil]

First of all: Welcome to this quite corner of the Barrow-Downs!

Thanks for your thoughts. I will comment on them as I can:
RD-EX-24: I do not remember if we discussed about the blood or if I only thought about it. My idea for keeping was that the gold could well have been stained with blood during the plundering of Nargothrond and that neither Mîm nor Húrin's band would have taken upon themselves the cleaning work.

RD-EX-31: As far as I remember we could not find any source beside QS77 that in which the Dwarves were already present at Menegroth when Húrin brought the treasure. In such cases we tend to us the information of other sources.

RD-EX-39: Good catch. The original text was: 'for the things the Nauglath had made were more wondrous far than the scanty vessels and the ornaments that the Rodothlim wrought of old.' In the new context of the Noldor from Nargothrond such comparision seems impossible. I think we should simply skip the 'more':

§299 (§28d) RD-EX-39 <TN Now {come}came the Dwarves{ nonetheless over the bridge and} before the chair of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and behold, the things of their workmanship they had conveyed thither in silken cloths, and boxes of rare woods carven cunningly. In other wise had {Úrin}[Húrin] haled the treasure thither{, and half thereof lay yet} in his rude sacks and clumsy chests; yet when the gold was once more revealed, then did a cry of wonder arise, for the things the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] had made were{ more} wondrous>. ...

RD-SL-19: Bodruith was exactly removed because of its meaning. Aiwendil worte:

Bodruith: I remember now my objection to the name. According to "Names in the Lost Tales" in II, GL glosses "bodruith" as "revenge". Christopher Tolkien speculates (quite plausibly, I think) that the Lord of Belegost received this name as a result of his actions in TN. Since this part has been removed from our version, I would drop the name.

RD-EX-54: I think that it is out of question that the actions of the Dwarves of Nogrod in the Fall of Doriath brought about a long lasting estrangement between the Dwarves and the Elves in general. In a simple black and white world view that does mean that they were afterwards nearer to a friendship with Morgoth following. This becomes even more true considering that later we learn that some of the eastern houses of the Dwarves joined Sauron in the Second Age. Nogord is later never really mentioned. So we can not be sure of its later attitude against Morgoth/Sauron or the Elves. The attitude of the House of Durin against the Sauron is not relevant in this case, since the sentence is more general. Beside that the caves that Thrain and Thorin used in their Exile were north of the gulf of Luhn, which means that they were in Belegost territory and not in Nogrod territory. And we have added that the Belegost Dwarves were in opposition to the revenge plans of Naugladur.

RD-EX-60: Good catch. But the cure is not so easy since Maedhros and I felt that he 'when' is needed. See the discussion of that here: Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth
Nonetheless I agree that we should change the sentence. What about:

§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60 {Now is}When the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. ...

RD-EX-67: Very good catch. I agree that 'fairy' can not stand in our Version. But I have to look into the original text in the book if that is a real change or if we have here the kind of typo that I named 'scanos'. I expect that this might be the case, since 'Elwing the fair' is used later on and 'Elwing the fairy' sounds strange to me even in the context of The Lost Tales.

RD-EX-79: Again very true. I suppose we change it to:[qoute]§330 (§51b) RD-EX-79 <TN {But}And the waters of {Aros}[Ascar] flowed on {for ever} above the drowned hoard of {Glorund}[Glaurung]{, and so do still}, for in after days Dwarves came from Nogrod and sought for it, and for the body of Naugladur; but a flood arose from the mountains and therein the seekers perished; and so great now {is}was the gloom and dread of {that Stony}[the Great] Ford that none {seek}sought the treasure that {it}[Ascar] {guards}guarded [near by] nor {dare}dared ever to cross the{ magic} stream [of Duin Daer] at that enchanted place.[/Quote]

Posted by ArcusCalion:

That was everything I saw, besides a few minor spelling mistakes.

In the last years I have become a kind of text keeper for this project and as such I am of course interested in these 'minor spelling mistakes' as well. So please come back to me with them either by posting them here or by Private Message or by email, whatever you prefer.

In the name of all that participated in the project so far, I would like to thank you for your compliments. I hope honestly that your enthusiasm may wake up the interest in the project by some former contributors or new once. Anyhow I am this time inclined to guide and enhance the new impulse in a different and hopefully more effective way then I did when Arvegil145 or Gothmog, LoB stirred the quite of this Barrow. So guys, if you are still around, take a look, probably the time has come for some progress.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Thanks for looking them over!

RD-EX-24: it seemed discordant to me when I read it, as the blood on the gold is not mentioned previously. Maybe insert the line about the goldbeing drenched in blood into the killing of Mim? For example:

§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: >RD-EX-11.5b QS77 'Then you shall enjoy your inhertiance no longer,{' said Húrin; '}for I am Húrin son of Galdor, returned out of Angband, and my son was Túrin Turambar, whom you have not forgotten; and he it was that slew Glaurung the Dragon, who wasted these halls where now you sit; and not unkown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6) <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.> TT<‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life{.},'>RD-EX-11.51b<editorial bridge said Húrin. <TN {but} But the {king's} hall ran with {gore} [the blood of Mîm], and the gold that lay {before his throne} [there] {scattered and spurned by trampling feet} was drenched with blood.>

incidentally, the word "inheritance" and the word "unknown" in the first paragraph are two of the minor spelling mistakes I mentioned.

RD-EX-31: Ah I see, this makes sense.

RD-EX-39: Your suggestion is perfect.

RD-SL-19: Ah, ok I get it.

RD-EX-54: Gotcha. I missed the Belegost/Nogrod distinction, and you're right.

RD-EX-60: Your suggestion remains a sentence fragment, grammatically. The "when" begins a subsidiary clause, but then the "but" cuts off any primary clause from forming. Removing the "but" would not work tho, as it conveys an essential sense of contrast between the two phrases. Perhaps:

RD-EX-60 Now {is} [when] the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} [grew] faint in the deep forest, {but Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower {and} [but] foreboding {is} [was] in her heart and eyes.

RD-EX-67: that is how it is written in the book itself.

RD-EX-79: perfect!

As for the minor spelling mistakes, two I have already mentioned above, and the others are not numerous:

RD-EX-42 <TN {None are that yet live,' quoth Ailios,' 'who have seen that most glorious thing, save only' Littleheart son of Bronweg, yet are many things told thereof.}[Many things were told of that most glorious thing.] Not only was it wrought with the greatest skill and subtlety in the world but it had a magic power, and there was, no throat so great or so slender whereon it sat not with grace and loveliness.

there is a superfluous comma after the was.

§316 (§43a) TN Now the Dwarfroad to Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains passed through East Beleriand and the woods about the {River Gelion}[Duin Daer], where aforetime were the hunting grounds of {Damrod and Diriel}[Amrod], {sons}son of Fëanor. To the south of those lands between the {river Gelion}[Duin Daer] and the mountains lay the land of Ossiriand, watered by seven streams, {Gelion}[Duin Daer], Ascar, Thalos, Legolin, Brilthor, Duilwen, Adurant.

I do not know if this is simply a typo, but when listing the names of the rivers, there should be an "and" before Adurant. I cannot find the source of the passage in the TN, so I cannot tell if it was a "scano"

I am eager to put a lot of work into helping you with this Findegil! This has been a dream of mine since I first read the Book of Lost Tales in middle school. What section remains in need of editing work? or has everything been finalized, and new sections needed?