Curse of Túrin

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Turning to the debate again - if Morgoth could actually curse Húrin and his kin - to the extent of completely devastating them AND 4 realms along the side, it begs the question of why he couldn't just curse everybody and destroy everyone while he's at it (though, admittedly, he did, but not with a curse...I think...)?

One thing I want to point out again is that Morgoth couldn't have forseen the fall of the kingdoms. His curse was directed to Hurin & co on a personal level - to make their lives miserable. But because they tried to fight it, and because they rose so high and associated themselves with the highest in Middle Earth - well, the higher you climb the harder you fall, as they say.

Another thing is that I do not think Morgoth himself knew how the curse would work, and if it would work at all. The curse was an act of ill-will, a trace of his malice left on the family through his willpower - still terrible, however diluted. But maybe, just maybe, the power of these men was so great that it could throw off the curse, that these people would be unaffected? At first, Morgoth thought it inconceivable. However, he certainly begins to doubt himself by Amon Rudh, and possibly to a lesser extent during Turin's other rises. But, fortunately for Morgoth, Turin was just powerful enough to rise and associate with the high kingdoms, but not powerful enough to escape him.

Originally Posted by Arvegil

It COULD be that he exerted what power he still had INTO the curse itself, basically making a little "avatar" of himself inside Túrin himself - or maybe inside Glaurung for that matter - sort of like a puppet master.

I wouldn't have put it that way, but that is one way I tend to think of it.

Originally Posted by Arvegil

But that would be "cursing" only by indirect means - and he had the mastery at that field of endeavor for certain. Note how I sometimes put curse inside the quotation marks? The same I did when I mentioned how Ilúvatar "cursed" him - I did not mean that he actually, literally, cursed him in the sense of maliciously manipulating his fate and/or free will - in that context I was simply trying to show how far can you go, step by step, towards putting the blame on someone/something - in that case, towards the ultimate end - God Himself. But that is another matter and I won't go into it (at least for now).

I don't blame Morgoth for all the woes of Turin. And I agree with whoever says his pride, stubbornness, and rashness are to blame for the physical actions and physical consequences. But I do believe that to some level there is a lot of just plain rotten luck involved - way more than average, way more than other similar characters get. I don't think Turin's fate is purely Morgoth's doing, but I do think he had some influence. Perhaps not all the time, and only in the luck element, but it's just a wonder to see someone so great become so misfortunate (yes, that is now a word. Says me. Live with it. ).

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Morgoth couldn't have forseen the fall of the kingdoms.

I'm not so sure about that. Morgoth after all was present in the Music, the greatest of the participants therein, even if much of the time his attention was on his own invention/corruption rather than what the rest were singing. Nonetheless, he was certainly aware of the major points, and the Music might not bind the Younger Children but certainly is as Fate to the Elder and their kingdoms.

In some ways I think his work on Hurin, in particular, was the creation of a spiritual Typhoid Mary, a walking moral bioweapon "infected" with evil, in that Hurin's spirit, originally great and noble, was now twisted, bitter and hate-filled, a contagion he spread everywhere he went after his release. And to what end, if not planting the seeds of destruction in those realms which still resisted?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

In some ways I think his work on Hurin, in particular, was the creation of a spiritual Typhoid Mary, a walking moral bioweapon "infected" with evil, in that Hurin's spirit, originally great and noble, was now twisted, bitter and hate-filled, a contagion he spread everywhere he went after his release. And to what end, if not planting the seeds of destruction in those realms which still resisted?

Yet Húrin, even more than his son, would seem to have been placed to avoid being such a "carrier".
Húrin knew Morgoth hated him and had placed the curse. He also is said to have been well aware of Morgoth's evil purpose in releasing him. Yet, he still went about playing the part set.

[Arvegil145]

It is also interesting to note that, despite Túrin's pride and arrogance, he managed to destroy only 1/3 of the remaining Elven kingdoms (not directly, of course).

It was actually Húrin himself who was the main "bio-weapon" of Morgoth. But considering his bitterness and his "evilness", I don't know about you, but if I was chained for 28 years and during that time forced to watch the ruin of everything that I hold dear, I would be little more than bitter and hate-filled - and even though he DID guess the purpose of Morgoth behind his release, what should've he done? In the words of Húrin himself (speaking to the dying Manthor):

Why, must I not still walk in the world?

Besides, the king and the realm, which he was protecting for so long and by such a heavy cost to himself and his kin, have basically disowned him when they heard that Morgoth released him (although Turgon did, ultimately, repent of his decision, it was by then too late) - and one more thing that just crossed my mind - had Turgon sent Thorondor to fetch Húrin when he first heard of his release, then Gondolin would stand at least for a while longer - and both the fate of Húrin AND the fate of the realms and peoples entwined with his fate might have been a little different.

Yes, in the end, Morgoth WOULD have prevailed, but at much greater cost to himself, and at much lesser cost to those who opposed him (at least as it seems to me).


Sorry for such a long rant, but my point is this - none should lightly judge people (especially in the case of Húrin).


P.S. I know, I know...I'm almost done...but basically everyone treated Húrin with a despicable disrespect when he was released - and they brought doom to themselves BY themselves.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

P.S. I know, I know...I'm almost done...but basically everyone treated Húrin with a despicable disrespect when he was released - and they brought doom to themselves BY themselves.

Well, yes, but, well, no... I see where you're coming from, but even if you deny any overarching fate/curse/whatever, it's still kind of hard to bring all that doom down all by oneself. Pretty much whenever some doom - or even a happily-ended but still grand event - falls, there is more than one party involved, and if any one of them did just one thing differently they could have changed the whole outcome. The "bad guys" make mistakes too, and the "[relatively] good guys" often have more than one voice/opinion, or more than one person with a flaw. Like, whose fault was the Fall of Doriath? Who brought this doom onto themselves? Or by themselves?

[Findegil]

One could blame Saeros. He drove Túrin out of Doriath and with that started the chain of Events that led to Húrins blaming Thingol by giving him the fataly cursed necklace.

Respectfully
Findegil

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Lots of little evils add up. With regard to Doriath, Hurin's bringing of the Hoard of Nargothrond/Nauglamir was in itself a neutral act, but for the curse of Mim; and even then the primary factor was the greed of the Dwarves of Nogrod. And Doriath still did not fall, yet; it was ravaged, but its ultimate destruction lay with the Sons of Feanor and the Oath, and if the Second Kinslaying had any prior agency involved it depended on the heroic "good" actions of Beren and Luthien.

Similarly with Gondolin: Hurin may have given away the ballpark geographic location, but that by itself would have amounted to nothing but for Maeglin's treachery- or for that matter Turgon's (non-evil) pride in failing to heed Ulmo.