Bilbo´s treachery

[Faramir Jones]

Ivriniel, Bilbo didn't steal the Arkenstone; it was part of the agreed fourteenth share of the profits he was promised in his contract with the dwarves. Thorin also changed the contract to say that he could pick and choose his own fourteenth share; so Bilbo was within his rights to take the Arkenstone; and as it was his personal property, he was entitled to give it away if he wanted.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

Ivriniel, Bilbo didn't steal the Arkenstone; it was part of the agreed fourteenth share of the profits he was promised in his contract with the dwarves. Thorin also changed the contract to say that he could pick and choose his own fourteenth share; so Bilbo was within his rights to take the Arkenstone; and as it was his personal property, he was entitled to give it away if he wanted.

I'd not interpreted it that way. But to ride with how you put it, it's still awkward at best, or impolite scheming in any case. A Hobbit, brought up in Hobbiton, with such refineries in Hobbiton on The Hill, in a wealthy Hobbit Hole, with Sackville Bagginses 'spoon stealing' , Bilbo would have been quite aware that he was transgressing. "You don't bite the hand that feeds you", or "leave the core Dwarvish relic to the Dwarves when choosing my wealth--don't be rude, Bilbo"

I remember thinking that Bilbo seemed to be minimising as a Hobbit with a guilty conscience. Rationalised what he knew was going to make enraged Dwarves.

I also wondered if Bilbo was quite a little bit 'over' the Dwarf-Elf antagonism, and more than just a little bit annoyed at the 13 of them, after months of being underdog, underling, subordinated, mistreated, and then winning the 14 of them. So over them all, that he 'Arkenstoned' himself to exile, a-purpose.

[Faramir Jones]

You suggested, Ivriniel, that Bilbo ''Arkenstoned' himself to exile, a-purpose'. My view is that Bilbo, after handing over the Arkenstone, didn't have to go back to the dwarves. He had carried out the terms of his contract, including taking his reward; so he had no further legal obligations towards them and Thorin. However, he wanted to return to those he regarded as his friends.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

You suggested, Ivriniel, that Bilbo ''Arkenstoned' himself to exile, a-purpose'. My view is that Bilbo, after handing over the Arkenstone, didn't have to go back to the dwarves. He had carried out the terms of his contract, including taking his reward; so he had no further legal obligations towards them and Thorin. However, he wanted to return to those he regarded as his friends.

I suppose some legal-ese can be applied to the analysis, and that was somewhat of it in the book. I recall Tolkien was a little tongue in cheek about the contract. Bilbo signed something at the Unexpected Party.

I'm not sure the Arkenstone was "one fourteenth" of the treasure. How Dwarves reckon it and the cultural emphasis on valuation of the wealth would matter, I suspect.

I don't seem to remember Gandalf being overly upset about the 'theft' of the Stone, and so, Bilbo declaring the theft was somewhat washed clean of the grime of the manipulation.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

I don't seem to remember Gandalf being overly upset about the 'theft' of the Stone, and so, Bilbo declaring the theft was somewhat washed clean of the grime of the manipulation.

Gandalf's comment on the matter to Bilbo was "Well done!" If that wasn't an absolution for Bilbo, what else could one possibly ask for?

[Galadriel55]

I don't think that Bilbo's deed was honest, in respect to the Dwarves. He does not think so either. But he knew it was necessary, which is why he did it, and why Gandalf approved. Sometimes doing the ultimately right thing isn't necessarily doing what might be right in an isolated moment. In the modern times, if your friend, who lives by a lake, is on hallucinogens and decides that he can walk on water - lock him up in his room, and preferably restrain him from doing too much damage. You might be a jerk to your friend, in that moment, but you're doing the right thing. And if it's a good friend, they'll thank you after.


Debating whether or not Bilbo's act qualifies as stealing is, in my opinion, an unfruitful argument. It was dishonest. It was not nice. But it was the right thing to do, and the Dwarves, including Thorin, saw that in the end. The contract - it's technical rubbish. Bilbo and the Dwarves might use it to throw "technically" arguments at each other to justify their behaviour, especially in times when their behaviour is most questionable, but at the end of the day they believe in greater things than petty legal technicalities. Why would a well-bred hobbit do such a dishonest thing? Because this particular well-bred hobbit agreed to go god knows where in the company of thirteen unknown men who trashed his house. If Bilbo has enough Took in him to step over that line, he might be one of the few who have enough adventurousness to rise above other rules as well. Was it a good act? Yesno: depends how you argue. It was certainly not good in that it was dishonest, and Bilbo did betray Thorin&co's trust, but it was good in that it was ultimately the right thing to do.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think that Bilbo's deed was honest, in respect to the Dwarves. He does not think so either. But he knew it was necessary, which is why he did it, and why Gandalf approved. Sometimes doing the ultimately right thing isn't necessarily doing what might be right in an isolated moment. In the modern times, if your friend, who lives by a lake, is on hallucinogens and decides that he can walk on water - lock him up in his room, and preferably restrain him from doing too much damage. You might be a jerk to your friend, in that moment, but you're doing the right thing. And if it's a good friend, they'll thank you after.

<--snip--The contract - it's technical rubbish.--snip-->

*chuckles* erm, I suppose that's prolly more to the point about it in Middle Earth-ian terms......

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I don't think that Bilbo's deed was honest, in respect to the Dwarves. He does not think so either. But he knew it was necessary, which is why he did it, and why Gandalf approved.

I think the taking of the Arkenstone was really a betrayal of Thorin as an individual rather than the whole company, as Bilbo would see it.

It was Thorin who had given the order to all the others that he alone had the rights to the jewel, and it seems it was mainly fear of Thorin's wrath that bothered Bilbo about keeping it secret.