The Interactions of the Ring-Bearers

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I find it a wonder that not once did a suspicion that "my friend is after the Ring" come crawling into their relationships. Perhaps that's one of the things Sauron underestimated most in the hobbits when he relied on the Ring's guile to mess up its other Bearers. He expected them to fight over the Ring to the death, not to help each other destroy it.

I think the conscious choices (acts of will) that the various actors had made are why there was no suspicion in the relationships. Bilbo had consciously chosen to give the Ring to Frodo. Even though there was a struggle, Bilbo held to the conviction that the Ring was Frodo's.

Sam only took the Ring out of desperation. He only briefly entertained the notion of keeping it for himself. After that, it was not a question for him that it was still Frodo's ring.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I've wondered if he in fact sent Gollum to Cirith Ungol and Shelob with an unexpected result that Shelob sets Gollum free

Interesting theory. I am curious if there is any textual support for that? I thought the text was fairly clear that Sauron released Gollum on purpose.

[Mithadan]

My comment was pure speculation in the nature of connect the dots.

Gollum was drawn to Mordor. "And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught and taken - for examination... When he was found he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief." The implication appears to be that he was released, but this is not expressly stated. All we know is that while he was at or in Mordor, he met Shelob.

"Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her..." Gollum was in Mordor years before only when he was caught and brought to Sauron. So he encountered Shelob either on his way in or on his way out.

"And as for Sauron; he knew where she lurked... And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not) Sauron would send her prisoners that he had no better uses for..." So Sauron was known to do this and might have done so with Gollum.

By the way, does anyone know why Tolkien seems to have disliked cats? Consider the early tale of Tevildo, lord of cats, who later became Sauron.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

My comment was pure speculation in the nature of connect the dots.

Gollum was drawn to Mordor. "And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught and taken - for examination... When he was found he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief." The implication appears to be that he was released, but this is not expressly stated. All we know is that while he was at or in Mordor, he met Shelob.

"Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her..." Gollum was in Mordor years before only when he was caught and brought to Sauron. So he encountered Shelob either on his way in or on his way out.

"And as for Sauron; he knew where she lurked... And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not) Sauron would send her prisoners that he had no better uses for..." So Sauron was known to do this and might have done so with Gollum.

By the way, does anyone know why Tolkien seems to have disliked cats? Consider the early tale of Tevildo, lord of cats, who later became Sauron.

I can't deny that you construct a convincing case.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The word is osanwe, "communication of thoughts" (literally something like "together-thinking", if I analyse it right), or sanwe-latya, "thought-opening". It's a natural ability among Ainur and Quendi, not tied to Rings, although I suppose the Three may have served as amplifiers.

Perhaps so, but we don't get to see it to say yea or nay; the wordless conversation in "Many Partings" occurred after the Three had become nothing more than historically valuable costume jewelry.

[Ivriniel]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Perhaps so, but we don't get to see it to say yea or nay; the wordless conversation in "Many Partings" occurred after the Three had become nothing more than historically valuable costume jewelry.

Osanwe, I just did a mini review of. It's relevant to the topic because Mithadan's materials look 'osanwe-ish' to some extent (only to the extent that I've supposed/have a growing sense) that Sauron used a perversion of Osanwe to inspire the 'greed-telepathy' variant of it in his domination/greed/lust-to-enslave/wraith/necromancy Ring Spell.

I read, as well that Osanwe does, to a much lesser degree, occur (or it can) in the Edain. This seemed to me to explain a great deal about the 'what happened' as Men and Elves 'grew most alike' to one another in Beleriand in the FA.

But about this thread, I'm not sure what residual effects the Three had, and it's probably possible that a Maia and two High Elves would have Osanwe in their basic communication capacity. But - I'm still clear that the Three had some residual properties. Not sure 'what' 'how much' or 'which'.

I've been closely attuning to another idea about Osanwe and I'm going to start a thread. It's this 'Unwill' thingmebobby. A very, very slippery concept and also very intriguing.

Cheers

[Mithadan]

Some follow up on an issue discussed in this thread.

I've wondered if he in fact sent Gollum to Cirith Ungol and Shelob with an unexpected result that Shelob sets Gollum free

and

My comment was pure speculation in the nature of connect the dots.

Gollum was drawn to Mordor. "And sooner or later as he lurked and pried on the borders he would be caught and taken - for examination... When he was found he had already been there long, and was on his way back. On some errand of mischief." The implication appears to be that he was released, but this is not expressly stated. All we know is that while he was at or in Mordor, he met Shelob.

"Already, years before, Gollum had beheld her, Sméagol who pried into all dark holes, and in past days he had bowed and worshipped her..." Gollum was in Mordor years before only when he was caught and brought to Sauron. So he encountered Shelob either on his way in or on his way out.

"And as for Sauron; he knew where she lurked... And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not) Sauron would send her prisoners that he had no better uses for..." So Sauron was known to do this and might have done so with Gollum.

I am re-reading LoTR and came across Gollum's own words regarding his capture by Sauron. As he and Frodo and Sam descend towards the Dead Marshes, he speaks of a way around the marshes that leads to the roads to the Black Gate. He then states as follows:

His Eye watches that way all the time. It caught Sméagol there, long ago.

So Gollum did not enter Mordor through Cirith Ungol and did not encounter Shelob when he entered Sauron's realm. This bolsters the argument that Sauron released him to Cirith Ungol, expecting that Shelob would trap him. Of course, Gollum, after being released from Mordor might have lurked on its borders, found the path to Cirith Ungol and entered it from outside Mordor. This seems unlikely to me for two reasons. First, why would Gollum wish to re-enter Mordor? Second, having been released, wouldn't he immediately resume his search for Bilbo and the Ring?

[Ivriniel]

I've always enjoyed re-reading, and it's a story with a journey of which part is ageing and re-reading.

This thread bears relationships to the other current thread about the Three.

I've been wondering about Osanwe and Ringlore, as I posted. I suspect that Sauronic plotting as Annatar included some perverted means of matching the advantage Elves have had in one way, over Sauron and Morgoth, in the Osanwe mentation.

Sauron was a jealous, possessive, sadistic being with dreams of unending domination. It must have irked him to be 'shut out' of telepathy, by a 'lowly' Elf. It states in the Osanwe materials that any Elf could shut out a Vala (have I interpreted that right). Prose reads that it is *fear* that elicits closure of one to another, and that a soul cannot be forced to rescind their foreclosure to commune. No matter the might of the other bearing down upon one.

Does anyone have any thoughts about this?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

So Gollum did not enter Mordor through Cirith Ungol and did not encounter Shelob when he entered Sauron's realm. This bolsters the argument that Sauron released him to Cirith Ungol, expecting that Shelob would trap him. Of course, Gollum, after being released from Mordor might have lurked on its borders, found the path to Cirith Ungol and entered it from outside Mordor. This seems unlikely to me for two reasons. First, why would Gollum wish to re-enter Mordor? Second, having been released, wouldn't he immediately resume his search for Bilbo and the Ring?

Is there a definitive statement about how many times Gollum went to Mordor?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

"And as for Sauron; he knew where she lurked... And sometimes as a man may cast a dainty to his cat (his cat he calls her, but she owns him not) Sauron would send her prisoners that he had no better uses for..." So Sauron was known to do this and might have done so with Gollum.

By the way, does anyone know why Tolkien seems to have disliked cats? Consider the early tale of Tevildo, lord of cats, who later became Sauron.

No doubt he was scratched by one. He probably tripped over it after being bitten by that tarantula.

[Mithadan]

Inziladun, way to blow up a developing theory. When you posted, I had just finished reading and re-reading several chapters of LoTR for clues, as they are well spread out. I generally do not think of looking at the Tale of Years for source material, so good catch.

So the gist of my theory was that Gollum first met Shelob at the time he exited Mordor, and that he was sent to Cirith Ungol purposefully by Sauron. Per Inzildun's cite to the Tale of Years, I appear to have been wrong (though see below) regarding when they first met. But I can confirm the balance of my theory.

In the chapter, The Black Gate is Closed, Gollum learns that Frodo and Sam intend to enter Mordor, and convinces them to avoid entering through the Black Gate, and instead use another route he had discovered. He describes:

A little path up into the mountains; and then a stair... [and] a tunnel... and a path high above the main pass.

Gollum reveals that he used this route to exit the Black Land and escape from Mordor. He denies that he was "released" with instructions. Later in the chapter Shelob's Lair, Gollum's first meeting with Shelob is described as having happened "years before" but does not discuss the specific circumstances other than his promise to bring her food.

Even later, in the chapter The Choice of Master Samwise, we have another source corroborating what Gollum said earlier. Shagrat, describing him as Shelob's "Sneak" states that Gollum had

been here before. Came out of Lugburz the first time, years ago, and we had word from High Up to let him pass. He's been up the Stairs once or twice since then...

So It appears that Gollum was allowed to exit the Dark Tower and enter Cirith Ungol. It is possible that he was led to believe that he had escaped. It is unclear whether Sauron expected that Shelob would kill Gollum. Based upon the Tale of Years entry, it seems that his exit from Mordor was not the first time that he met Shelob, though Shagrat's statement may contradict this.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I generally do not think of looking at the Tale of Years for source material, so good catch.

I like TOY for that very reason. For the chronically ADHD riddled (like me), it's a nice, quick resource.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Gollum reveals that he used this route to exit the Black Land and escape from Mordor. He denies that he was "released" with instructions. Later in the chapter Shelob's Lair, Gollum's first meeting with Shelob is described as having happened "years before" but does not discuss the specific circumstances other than his promise to bring her food.

Odds are, Gollum told Shelob whatever he thought would save his own bony self. He may have been drawn to her as a greater source of malice, though, and maybe had thought he could use her at some undefined future point.

Originally Posted by Mithadan

So It appears that Gollum was allowed to exit the Dark Tower and enter Cirith Ungol. It is possible that he was led to believe that he had escaped. It is unclear whether Sauron expected that Shelob would kill Gollum. Based upon the Tale of Years entry, it seems that his exit from Mordor was not the first time that he met Shelob, though Shagrat's statement may contradict this.

I think Sauron believed Gollum could probably make his way out of Mordor, though I doubt he'd have lost any sleep had that not been the case.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The text T4 of the Tale of Years (the full version Tolkien wanted to publish but couldn't for space reasons, leading to the very compressed Appendix B text) has this:

3001 About this time Gollum was captured and taken to Mordor and there held in prison.

Therefore Gollum had first met Shelob some two decades before he was captured. It's clear that whether or not Sauron expected him to die, Gollum knew he could exit via Cirith Ungol without becoming spider-meat. However, it's very clear from Shagrat and Gorbag's conversation that Gollum was deliberately allowed to escape, likely because Sauron felt he might lead him to the Ring.