Who are the 'wild men'?

[Ivriniel]

Hey there - yes, it's improper to use the term 'tharbad' to imply 'city of Tharbad' or 'city of Tharbad held by Dunedain', for the pre-Rohan history and also for the Numenorean presence pre-Third Age. Tharbad was a Numenorean stronghold, I just re-read. Joining Arnor and Gondor and the Greenway over the bridges of Tharbad. A region apparently drained by the Realms in Exile and a city plonked on stone above fens.

The Dunlendings, though I also just read were descended from the House of Haleth and were "distant" relatives of the Numenoreans. Described as tall and dark haired and jealous of Numenoreans. Enemies of Rohan. They occupied the lands surrounding and Numenor felled significant trees from the region.

I revise the entry I wrote to read:

Sauron sent forces that were coming in front the South East and were in Enedwaith

--at the crossing of Tharbad--

(at the time, that was prior to Numenorean engineering the causeway at Tharbad. I'm pretty sure there was no 'city of Tharbad' at this time, because it was mostly water and fens). At the time of the War of Elves and Sauron, that was only lightly held by Sauron. I re-read though that the gist of it all was that the Dunlendings were rather hoping Sauron would oust the Numenoreans from the region. I'm not sure if Dunlendings actually fought for Sauron. I need to brief myself on this last item

[Ivriniel]

I don't believe that there's a "natural" link between family relationships and a claim to a specific territory. From my point of view there's no such thing as "rightful" or "legitimate" owners simply by biological or cultural heritage. "Property" and "rights" are social categories which are tied to a political construct, i.e. a state and only make sense in that context. And those political constructs are always established and sustained by force.

On a personal note I don't adhere to ideas about land ownership, either, and would be quite happy if we didn't have passports but - no one agrees with me about this. I expected anti-Numenorean commentary to elicit objections from pro-Numenorean readers. Of late, I've grown rather anti-Numenorean, excepting Silmarien's line and excepting the poor fellas and women in the Forgotten Caves, who have to rot there until the End of Days I wonder if they're bored, annoyed, for example "if Ar Pharazon asks us one more time for a dinner invitation after what he's done to us, I'd scream except that we're all still screaming since the drowning of Numenor. I told everyone it was a bad idea to go along with his 'attack the west thing' and now look - our idiot cousins got away from Andunie". hahaha

So, I don't agree that the Dunlendings of 3019 T.A. can justify their war against the Rohirrim based on something that happened over 500 years ago. Or would you suggest that I have an inherent right and a claim to some territory my distant ancestors inhabited in the year 1516, wherever this may be?

Apart from the moral question, I think it's fair to assume that the "history" between the Rohirrim and the Dunledings created a highly ideologized feud and hatred between them.

But, Leaf ownership, sovereignty, territoriality as characterise by Tolkien it seems to me were central tenets used to explain the tensions between the Dunlendings, the Dunedain, Numenor and Rohan. Longstanding gripes over land ownership. I wonder if the Dunlendings were expected to pay taxes to Gondor and Arnor for example, during -- as Dunlendings would have put it -- "the occupation".

Dunlendings were antagonistic to Rohan and Dunedain and the conflict emphasised jealousies and conflict over sovereignty of the region.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

Dunlendings were antagonistic to Rohan and Dunedain and the conflict emphasised jealousies and conflict over sovereignty of the region.

There was also a racial component to the mutual dislike between Dunland and Rohan. The Rohirrim made note of King Helm's eventual murder victim Freca's dark hair, seeing that as a sign of his Dunlendish blood. That was apparently a factor in the king's scornful words to him at the meeting where Freca met his death.

For their part, the Dunlendings were said to have been yelling "death to the strawheads" as they assaulted Helm's Deep.

Whether the racial difference merely compounded the territory issue or stood on its own, I could only guess.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's not quite that the Dunlendings were "descendants of the House of Haleth" so much as that they (and, generally, the population of Eriador from the Bree-land south) were part of a rather large race or tribe of Men of whom one branch crossed early into Beleriand and occupied Brethil. Similarly, the Northmen/Eotheod/Rohirrim were "cousins" of the Hadorians, but not descended from them.

On the other hand, maybe it was all because the Dunlendings were still ticked off over Turin and Hurin.....

[Ivriniel]

HI there Inziladun

and .....

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

It's not quite that the Dunlendings were "descendants of the House of Haleth" so much as that they (and, generally, the population of Eriador from the Bree-land south) were part of a rather large race or tribe of Men of whom one branch crossed early into Beleriand and occupied Brethil. Similarly, the Northmen/Eotheod/Rohirrim were "cousins" of the Hadorians, but not descended from them.

On the other hand, maybe it was all because the Dunlendings were still ticked off over Turin and Hurin.....

hahahaha yes -

"Turn and Hurin hogged so much attention - suffer then all of them - Morgoth took notice and voila! At least they took the heat off us".