Who are the 'wild men'?

[Leaf]

You keep confusing my assessments to be descriptive even though I clearly stated that they are more of the normative type. I was simply expressing my opinion on a moral question and didn't try to make positive claims about the actual history of human existence. (cf. naturalistic fallacy, 'is-ought' problem. There's a difference between the way the world is, and how it ought to be.) I did this because I think that the affirmative devotion and identification with the cause of the 'wild men' is problematic and complicated. And I already agreed with you that the history of mankind is, of course, filled with similar or comparable conflicts. I know that people tend to take the ideas and concepts about property and territory very seriously. I know that people even fought wars over such categories. And I already said so in my last post. That's why I really don't understand why you are trying to foist such positions on me:

Originally Posted by Morthoron

[...]I would have to reply that biological and cultural heritage are very distinct and not synonymous at all. And just because you feel that way cannot erase the entire history of Mankind, [...] You don't think there is a cultural heritage in the English, and later American traditions that hold ownership of property almost a fundamental Right -- like guns?[...]

But never mind answering this. I would much rather talk about Tolkien's work and the actual texts instead of indulging in meta-discussions about the way we argue, primates or the Irish. That's why I provided (using the edit-feature) some interesting, at least in my opinion, quotations from Silmarillion in my last post. I think that they suggest that this topic is complex and more complicated when it comes to the different texts.

Edit

In fact I'm going to continue with this right now:

The way the Noldor justified their realms in Beleriand is comparable to the justification of the Númenóreans. The Noldor are claiming their domain based on the ability to defend it from Morgoth:

"By the swords of the Noldor alone are your sunless woods defended. Your freedom to wander there wild you owe to my kin; and but for them long since you would have laboured in thraldom in the pits of Angband."

"[...]Indeed Doriath alone would be his realm this day, but for the coming of the Noldor. Therefore in Doriath let him reign, and be glad that he has the sons of Finwë for his neighbours, not the Orcs of Morgoth that we found."

We all know that they ultimately failed in that regard. They were not able to keep Morgoth at bay and suffered greatly in the war against him. Yet they (especially Turgon) were able to sustain their realms long enough for the eventual "rescue" by the Valar. I think it's fair to point out that the kingdoms of Arnor and Gondor played a similar role in the history of Middle-Earth. What would the situation have been like if there wasn't a kingdom like Gondor?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Just to toss some more red meat into the dog-pit, I'll observe that the "fall" of Rhudaur (from the Numenorean standpoint) was effectively an Angmar-aided revolt of the native population against their minority Dunedain overlords.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Just to toss some more red meat into the dog-pit, I'll observe that the "fall" of Rhudaur (from the Numenorean standpoint) was effectively an Angmar-aided revolt of the native population against their minority Dunedain overlords.

Gondor conquered swathes of Rhun and the Harad as well. Small wonder men from the Northern Waste to the Southern heats turned to Sauron to drive out their Numenorean oppressors.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Gondor conquered swathes of Rhun and the Harad as well. Small wonder men from the Northern Waste to the Southern heats turned to Sauron to drive out their Numenorean oppressors.

Which begs an interesting question of what life under Sauron's domination was like?

Tolkien spoke of the Easterlings and Haradrim being relatively primitive until the Numenoreans and Sauron (under pressure from the Numenoreans and desiring to have tools at his disposal to compete with them) started uplifting their material culture. I suspect the Numenoreans and Sauron both only wanted to give them so much to help them, but only so much as to prevent them from getting "ideas."

I wonder, was serving Sauron a choice that the ordinary Easterling or Haradrim disliked and regretted or did the two not seem so different to them?

[Leaf]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I'll observe that the "fall" of Rhudaur (from the Numenorean standpoint) was effectively an Angmar-aided revolt of the native population against their minority Dunedain overlords.

Originally Posted by Elmo

Gondor conquered swathes of Rhun and the Harad as well. Small wonder men from the Northern Waste to the Southern heats turned to Sauron to drive out their Numenorean oppressors.

I think it's important to be a little bit more precise. You are not making any distinction between ordinary people ("native population", "men") and the nobility, or a local political elite, as if they were identical. It seems more likely to me that a political elite (i.e. the King of Rhudaur, "Black Númenóreans") saw the opportunity to join Sauron and, with his aid, overthrow the current "oppressors" to become the undisputed "oppressors" themselves.

But then again, I don't know the exact passages in the text. Maybe you could provide them for the discussion.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Just to toss some more red meat into the dog-pit, I'll observe that the "fall" of Rhudaur (from the Numenorean standpoint) was effectively an Angmar-aided revolt of the native population against their minority Dunedain overlords.

Númenóreans were known as cruel tyrants during their years of colonization, so it's not surprising the Dúnedain leaf didn't fall far from the tree.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Númenóreans were known as cruel tyrants during their years of colonization, so it's not surprising the Dúnedain leaf didn't fall far from the tree.

Yes, but not all Numenoreans were the same, and the Arnorians were of the nicer variety.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes, but not all Numenoreans were the same, and the Arnorians were of the nicer variety.

Nice enough that many of the Dunlendings and their kin had removed to Eriador to become willing subjects of the Northern Dúnedain settling at Bree, and going so far as to abandon their former language and customs.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Nice enough that many of the Dunlendings and their kin had removed to Eriador to become willing subjects of the Northern Dúnedain settling at Bree, and going so far as to abandon their former language and customs.

I'm sure the Dunlendings migration happened in the Dark Years of the Second Age, where they moved North to escape Sauron's shadow and so long pre-dating the establishment of Arnor.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I'm sure the Dunlendings migration happened in the Dark Years of the Second Age, where they moved North to escape Sauron's shadow and so long pre-dating the establishment of Arnor.

It could have been a mix of both.

However, I think this serves to highlight the point I made earlier that the foundation of Arnor did not cause disruption to the Bree-folk.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Elmo

I'm sure the Dunlendings migration happened in the Dark Years of the Second Age, where they moved North to escape Sauron's shadow and so long pre-dating the establishment of Arnor.

Alien too, or only remotely akin, was the language of the Dunlendings. These were a remnant of the peoples that had dwelt in vales of the White Mountains in ages past. The Dead Men of Dunharrow were of their kin. But in the Dark Years others had removed to the southern dales of the Misty Mountains; and thence some had passed into the empty lands as far north as the Barrow-downs. From them came the Men of Bree; but long before these had had become subjects of the North Kingdomof Arnor and had taken up the Westron tongue.

ROTK Appendix F

It doesn't give the reason for the move north, but you could be right. Point is though, that those migrant Dunlendings didn't harbor enough ill will toward the Dûnedain to induce them to resist Arnor. The Bree-men, at any rate, had no qualms with being subjects of the Northern Kingdom.