Thorin in the Blue Mountains

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The king of Nogrod had been killed by Beren before the First Age ended. In fact, between the Green-Elves and the Ents, the host of Nogrod was "destroyed utterly" which at least suggests that all male Dwarves of fighting age, including the royal family, were wiped out.

[Narnil]

I am pretty sure that somewhere Tolkien said that all land north of the river Lune's first tributary from the Blue Mountains was dwarf land and remained dwarf land throughout much of Middle-Earth's history. I can't find teh quote but I know it was from Dwarfs and Men in vol 12 of HoMe

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The king of Nogrod had been killed by Beren before the First Age ended. In fact, between the Green-Elves and the Ents, the host of Nogrod was "destroyed utterly" which at least suggests that all male Dwarves of fighting age, including the royal family, were wiped out.

I don't disagree with the statement, but I disagree with the implication.

Fighting age does not equal every age. If the experience of Gimli regarding Thorin's expedition is any guide (and I see no reason why it wouldn't be) the younger male dwarves would not have gone on the expedition to sack Doriath, this would include any younger males of the royal family, which would have been a bit more of a priority to ensure there was at least one survivor. In fact, it should be presumed to have been such a priority that we should assume that an arrangement like this would be made.

That the population of the Firebeards was permanently crippled is not at issue. The point is that this does not equal extinction.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Yes, I see what you're saying.

I think really we have another bit of Tolkien creating a bind for himself that he never cleared up, if he even noticed the problem at all. The Seven Rings appeared, almost ex nihilo, in the Ring-verse. The idea of the "Seven Houses of the Dwarves" came rather later but was, I'm pretty sure, derived from it; it made sense and still does that Sauron gave a ring to each Dwarf-king.

The problem came, as so many did, from trying to ret-con the new material into the existing legendarium, and the incompatibility of having seven dwarf-kingdoms in the Second Age but two major ones from the old legendarium which going by the LR weren't there any more. There isn't any real solution except by artificial rationalization, and unlike Tolkien we don't get to re-write anything.

And then there is something of a how-de-do with the idea that four, count 'em, four of the Dwarf-rings were lost to dragon fire. There are certain geographical problems posed by that.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Yes, I see what you're saying.

I think really we have another bit of Tolkien creating a bind for himself that he never cleared up,

Yup, but half the fun of being a Tolkien fan is trying to figure out ways to make all the inconsistencies make some kind of rational sense.

There isn't any real solution except by artificial rationalization

Again, half the fun...and I think the ideas presented make sense.

And then there is something of a how-de-do with the idea that four, count 'em, four of the Dwarf-rings were lost to dragon fire. There are certain geographical problems posed by that.

Possibly, but not necessarily. It is true that it is almost essential to assume that the four rings eaten by dragons were the ones of the eastern houses. However, perhaps dragons were more active and widespread in eastern Middle-earth. That, in fact, might be used as a piece of evidence to support such an assertion.

Another question is, how did the news get out? I'm assuming the dwarves would have spread the word eventually as time passed.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Alternative ret-con: one of the Blue Mountain royal houses relocated (perhaps after a stint in Moria) to the Grey Mountains, like Thrain to Erebor. Some time after, reptilian flammenwerfer, dwarvecue and so on.


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perhaps dragons were more active and widespread in eastern Middle-earth. That, in fact, might be used as a piece of evidence to support such an assertion.

Hobbit Ch. 1- Bilbo claimed he was willing to "walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms of the Last Desert"*

*revised text. 1st ed, "Gobi desert"

[Formendacil]

Fact: Sauron gave seven Rings of Power to Dwarf-kings.

Fact: There were seven ancestral houses of Dwarves.

Only Speculation: The seven "Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone" who received the seven Rings corresponded one-to-one to the seven different Dwarf-tribes.



Fact: By the time of the Rings' forging, at least one Dwarf-house (Nogrod) and possibly two (Belegost) were greatly weakened.

(Related question: from simple geography, how likely is it that Sauron, in the years after the destruction of Eregion and the theft of the the work of the Mirdain, went anywhere near the Blue Mountains, so close to Lindon?)

Fact: Dwarves in the Second Age could have more than one kingdom--or, at least, more than one outpost. The Longbeards ruled the Misty Mountains from Moria to Gundabad, and across the Grey Mountains, with an outpost colony in the Iron Hills. Who is to say that the four Dwarf-tribes of the East did not have multiple kingdoms? In the earlier Ages of their greatest fecundity, why couldn't the Dwarves had spread to found more than seven ancestral houses?

We know, at the very least, that the Rings of Power given to the "kings of Men" could not have all gone to literal Kings, because three of them went to Númenóreans, none of whom were Kings of Númenor. The possibility for a similar sort of analogy seems to me to be at least potentially in play here.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Slight correction: the Ring-verse says Dwarf-lords, not kings, and everywhere else that I can think of to look it just says "to the Dwarves" without specifying kings.

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Query: if the regal heirs of Nogrod and Belegost survived the War of Wrath, did they go to Moria with the "many" of their people who migrated there? Were they content to be powerless and rather resentful guests of the House of Durin?