Where do elves get metal?

[Zigûr]

Gondolin is specifically stated as having mines. Consider this statement about Maeglin:

"he gathered about him all such as had the most bent to smithcraft and mining; and he sought in the Echoriath (which are the Encircling Mountains), and found rich lodes of ore of divers metals. Most he prized the hard iron of the mine of Anghabar in the north of the Echoriath, and thence he got a wealth of forged metal and of steel, so that the arms of the Gondolindrim were made ever stronger and more keen; and that stood them in good stead in the days to come."

This is the only statement I can find in The Silmarillion about Elven mines, but given that so many Elves lived underground, including Thranduil, I would consider it very unlikely that they didn't have their own mines. Mines tend to usually be mentioned in the context of Dwarves and the enemy, it seems, but I wouldn't say that means that the Men of Gondor, for instance, who were great metalworkers, didn't have mines.

Considering how much the Noldor loved working with metal, I'd say it would be practically essential that they had mines of their own. I can't see Eregion not having its own mines, for instance.

That being said, I'm sure some Elves did acquire it through trade with Dwarves; not Thranduil perhaps, but those with friendly relations presumably could have.

[Axbolt]

Very interesting, so I would assume that if elves mined at Gondolin then they must still mine in middle earth. However there is no mention of it anywhere in LOTR that I can find.

[Zigûr]

Nope. I've done a search of the whole thing (The Lord of the Rings, I mean) and couldn't find a reference to Mines outside of those used by Dwarves and Orcs.

It just seems likely to me that they probably did have their own mines. Professor Tolkien just doesn't seem to often describe such industrial business when it comes to Elves, even though there were surely Elf-miners and Elf-farmers and Elves who did all sorts of fairly menial manual labour to keep Elven society running; perhaps they just did it so well (as you might imagine they would) that it just wasn't worth mentioning!

[skip spence]

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do.

I would assume that the Elves of Middle Earth would trade with Dwarves or Men for ore, metals and metalwork rather than doing it themselves if they had the opportunity.

Like fex Thingol would have the Dwarves of Ered Luin supply his metal and smithying needs. I assume that Thranduil would trade for his fill as well, maybe with the Men of Dale acting as middle men between him and the Dwarves. Almost certainly the Noldor of Eregion would have gotten most of their metals and ore from Moria, even though the Noldor would have been the most keen miners of the Elvish peoples. The Elves of Lindon in the Third Age also had Dwarven neighbours.

The native Wood-Elves would barely use metals, if at all, methinks.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do.

Then again, didn't Morgoth value his Noldorin slaves for their skills in mining and smithwork?

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Then again, didn't Morgoth value his Noldorin slaves for their skills in mining and smithwork?

At least in BoLT it is mentioned how he used the enslaved Elves to build his machines.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

At least in BoLT it is mentioned how he used the enslaved Elves to build his machines.

The Silmarillion, in Of Túrin Turambar states:

For few of the Noldor whom Morgoth captured were put to death, because of their skill in forging and in mining for metals and gems...

I doubt Thranduil's people did that stuff, but they could once have had trade with Dwarves of Erebor, the Iron Hills, or even long ago Moria, and still had arrow points and such stockpiled. After all, arrows can usually be retrieved.

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do

If mining is an un-elvish thing to do, then a lot of things must be an un-elvish thing to do. It must be very boring to be an elf

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Wasn't it also implied or stated that Maeglin's and his father Eöl's keen interest in mining and smithcraft was rather looked down on by the other nobles? That it was below their station to go under ground and dig for ore and that they became bent by their labour? It does seem a rather un-Elvish thing to do.

Well Eöl was certainly "stooped by his smithwork" but he was disdained by Curufin as a "Dark Elf" rather than for other apparent reasons, at least as far as I can see.

Also, I don't think other Elf nobles would have looked down on smithcraft; at least the Noldor would not have done, as Fëanor was the greatest craftsman of their people and also King for a time and held in high esteem.

Furthermore, many Elves didn't just go underground but lived underground as a matter of course, if usually for defensive purposes, and that included Noldor like Finrod in Nargothrond as well as "Dark" Elves like Thingol and Thranduil.

The Silmarillion does state, however, that Eöl often took Maeglin to the mansions of the Dwarves in Ered Luin where he learned "the craft of finding the ores of metals in the mountains," so perhaps such skills were not necessarily common among Elves; but they had to have been common enough that the craftsmen of Turgon could delve their own mines in the Encircling Mountains, unless those mines were not delved until after Maeglin came to Gondolin.

It just seems very unlikely to me that Elves never acquired metal for themselves on their own. Not all Elves were noblemen of high station and many must surely have done fairly "ordinary" work, albeit probably in a superior, Elvish way.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Well Eöl was certainly "stooped by his smithwork" but he was disdained by Curufin as a "Dark Elf" rather than for other apparent reasons, at least as far as I can see.

Also, I don't think other Elf nobles would have looked down on smithcraft; at least the Noldor would not have done, as Fëanor was the greatest craftsman of their people and also King for a time and held in high esteem.

Furthermore, many Elves didn't just go underground but lived underground as a matter of course, if usually for defensive purposes, and that included Noldor like Finrod in Nargothrond as well as "Dark" Elves like Thingol and Thranduil.

The Silmarillion does state, however, that Eöl often took Maeglin to the mansions of the Dwarves in Ered Luin where he learned "the craft of finding the ores of metals in the mountains," so perhaps such skills were not necessarily common among Elves; but they had to have been common enough that the craftsmen of Turgon could delve their own mines in the Encircling Mountains, unless those mines were not delved until after Maeglin came to Gondolin.

It just seems very unlikely to me that Elves never acquired metal for themselves on their own. Not all Elves were noblemen of high station and many must surely have done fairly "ordinary" work, albeit probably in a superior, Elvish way.

Yes I'm not suggesting they never would. The case of isolated Gondolin is clear proof of that. Even in The Undying Lands there must've been Elvish mines - no Dwarves over there but the Firstborn still worked with metal. I do think that most Elves would probably prefer to buy ore and smithy-work from the Dwarves because they didn't want to dirty their fingernails in the mines and because the Dwarves were the best in the business.

I'm going by memory here but I suppose I might be reading too much into that Eöl was 'stooped' by his work. That this crookedness would be a reflection not only of his physical shape but also of his soul. His son Maeglin, the most wicked of all Elves, was of course also a keen miner something I can't help but to connect.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by skip spence

I might be reading too much into that Eöl was 'stooped' by his work. That this crookedness would be a reflection not only of his physical shape but also of his soul. His son Maeglin, the most wicked of all Elves, was of course also a keen miner something I can't help but to connect.

Maybe Eöl's "stoop" was also an image of the way in which he'd become almost Dwarvish: obsessed with his craft, secretive, and insular.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by skip spence

they didn't want to dirty their fingernails in the mines

Do Elves really seem this squeamish or vain in the books? I feel like this modern pop-cultural idea of Elves as universally being aristocratic snobs who spend all their time sitting around smelling flowers or something is not really borne out in Professor Tolkien's work. Surely Elves had to do all manner of "dirty" jobs all the time. They were probably just able to do them more effectively and with more dignity and poise than Men and other peoples; perhaps not when in the fetters of Morgoth, which I imagine was a miserable time for all concerned, but in their own realms.

I think it may not actually be clear if the Elves used metal before they were taught in its use by Aulë in Aman. They certainly do not appear to have forged metal weapons prior to being taught how to do so by Melkor in Aman. I wonder if the Avari used metal. Perhaps they had to be taught by the Dwarves, who seemed to have been endowed with such knowledge by Aulë.