Where do elves get metal?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by skip spence

they didn't want to dirty their fingernails in the mines

Do Elves really seem this squeamish or vain in the books? I feel like this modern pop-cultural idea of Elves as universally being aristocratic snobs who spend all their time sitting around smelling flowers or something is not really borne out in Professor Tolkien's work. Surely Elves had to do all manner of "dirty" jobs all the time. They were probably just able to do them more effectively and with more dignity and poise than Men and other peoples; perhaps not when in the fetters of Morgoth, which I imagine was a miserable time for all concerned, but in their own realms.

I think it may not actually be clear if the Elves used metal before they were taught in its use by Aulë in Aman. They certainly do not appear to have forged metal weapons prior to being taught how to do so by Melkor in Aman. I wonder if the Avari used metal. Perhaps they had to be taught by the Dwarves, who seemed to have been endowed with such knowledge by Aulë.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Do Elves really seem this squeamish or vain in the books? I feel like this modern pop-cultural idea of Elves as universally being aristocratic snobs who spend all their time sitting around smelling flowers or something is not really borne out in Professor Tolkien's work. Surely Elves had to do all manner of "dirty" jobs all the time. They were probably just able to do them more effectively and with more dignity and poise than Men and other peoples; perhaps not when in the fetters of Morgoth, which I imagine was a miserable time for all concerned, but in their own realms.
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Squeamish, no. Vain and snobbish, yeah.

Think this is partly because pretty much all the Elves we meet are high ranking nobles and also, more significantly, because the Prof wanted to give the Elves this aura of elevated and transcendent aloofness - describing them at work with dull menial tasks goes against that. But yeah, since they seem to have most of the basic needs that Men do, one has to assume that they also do the dirty work that comes with satisfying them.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Maybe Eöl's "stoop" was also an image of the way in which he'd become almost Dwarvish: obsessed with his craft, secretive, and insular.

Yeah, that too I'm sure.

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Squeamish, no. Vain and snobbish, yeah.

I agree, I don't think that they are squeamish, but I would say they would have no problem, minding and doing other dirty work if they weren't trying to be as un-dawarvish as posible.

[Zigûr]

Firstly I want to say sorry (especially to skip spence) if I'm banging on about this too much and/or making too much of one remark.

In any event, high-ranking Elves certainly could be arrogant, even towards each other, and I recall that they do seem to have considered some people to be "ugly" (I thought this was about the Dwarves, but it was the language of the Dwarves which is "unlovely" to their ears).

At the same time, however, I don't recall Elves ever being "precious" about their appearances in a "don't want to get their fingernails dirty" kind of way. Elves were naturally "fair" and seem to have generally been well-dressed and well-groomed, but I don't recall them ever, as it were, "wrinkling their noses" in a sort of posh way at things they thought were dirty or unhygienic or something like that. Finrod doesn't seem to have cared about disguising himself as an Orc, for instance, although perhaps those disguises were purely magical.

I suppose this is bringing to my mind the image of a posh nobleman holding some "dirty" thing at arm's length with a wrinkled nose, and such behaviour simply doesn't come across to me in the books. Many high-ranking Elves were craftsmen, and that's inevitably dirty, sweaty work. Some of them may have sneered at "lesser" Elves and other peoples, but they don't come across as shying away from "dirty" work (of which battle was surely another one).

I apologies if I'm going on too much about this, and I don't mean to harp on about one thing you said skip spence. I'm just not sure how much evidence there is for this "avoiding getting their fingernails dirty" characterisation of Elves.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Firstly I want to say sorry (especially to skip spence) if I'm banging on about this too much and/or making too much of one remark.
...
I apologies if I'm going on too much about this, and I don't mean to harp on about one thing you said skip spence. I'm just not sure how much evidence there is for this "avoiding getting their fingernails dirty" characterisation of Elves.

No worries mate i dont feel in any way offended nor attacked. Im mostly talking out of my arse anyway. I do think that the Elves generally give off this "holier than thou" impression even though they don't nessesary shy away from hard work. You know: 'we don't normally hang with dull hobbits but we'll make an exception for tonight and you should be very grateful' that kind of attitude.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

1) The Noldor in Valinor definitely mined for gems

2) To the extent the BOLT is canon, one of the Twelve Houses (Meglin's) was that of the Mole, a house of miners. They were distinct from Rog's Hammer, the smiths.

3) The Noldor most assuredly quarried, not all that far from mining. "Deep they delved us" goes Legolas' song in Hollin.

[Zigûr]

I'm currently in the process of making final emendations to my successful PhD thesis on Professor Tolkien and utopianism (ie I should be graduating in September but a few small changes have been requested prior to final submission), and this has involved touching upon Dr. Rateliff's The History of the Hobbit. I was particularly interested in reading the passages of the short-lived 1960 "rewrite", which includes among other things a new episode featuring a broken bridge, the Last Bridge of The Lord of the Rings. Dr. Rateliff muses that in this version of events "clearly Elrond must have restored it sometime in the intervening years" but later makes the following remark:

While Elrond's maintenance of the road makes sense and is in keeping with his role as the preserver of the last vestiges of the North Kingdom, it is hard to picture the elves of Rivendell working at road-mending, since throughout the legendarium the elves are never associated with road-making.

While it is true that we hear very little of Elf-roads in the texts, although there was a path through Mirkwood used by Thranduil's people, it does not seem unreasonable to me to imagine Elves being capable of restoring and maintaining bridges and roads where necessary given their talent in so many other crafts.

With no disrespect intended to Dr. Rateliff, I wonder if this speculation also arises from this curiously common assumption that Elves were averse to manual labour.

[Galadriel55]

I think the fact that Elves are portrayed as "constantly elegant" does not mean that they are squeamish or contemptuous of dirty work, but rather that the work for them is not dirty at all. They are just creative beings, and they turn everything into creation, into art. Arranging food on platters is an art, not a service. Mining is also an art, and a rather skill-demanding one. And good metalwork (and I therefore presume good metal extraction from the ground) is a skill that's honoured, so perhaps it's not as lowly as you make it sound.

I realize that I'm talking more about late Third Age ME Elves when I talk about art. The First Age Elves were darker, certainly had less smooth "class systems" and more tensions between them. However, I still think that their essence of creativity rather than destruction is present throughout.

And this brings me to the main point of how Elf mines could have been different from Dwarf (or orc) mines. Unlike those two, Elves don't seem to make industries for anything. They don't make more things for the sake of making more; they make just as much as they need for the foreseeable future. They use wood too, but they would never chop down forests; the Dwarves, while they have intentions of creation, can lose track of the destructive aspect - which is why they awoke Durin's Bane, and why Yavanna was concerned about their existence. When Dwarves make, they make it an industry. Elves don't; if they had mines, those mines would be smaller and as harmless as possible. Those Elves who lived underground probably had more extensive mines, but still not "industry scale" like the Dwarves, and certainly not "full on destructive" like the orcs. So I think they had some mines, but they were smaller and not used as often.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I think the fact that Elves are portrayed as "constantly elegant" does not mean that they are squeamish or contemptuous of dirty work, but rather that the work for them is not dirty at all. They are just creative beings, and they turn everything into creation, into art. Arranging food on platters is an art, not a service. Mining is also an art, and a rather skill-demanding one. And good metalwork (and I therefore presume good metal extraction from the ground) is a skill that's honoured, so perhaps it's not as lowly as you make it sound.

I think this is a very good way of looking at it, and ties nicely to Professor Tolkien's literary influences from arts-and-crafts supporter William Morris. In Morris' utopian text News from Nowhere, the "problem of labour" has been eliminated because all labour is now art.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Elves don't seem to make industries for anything. They don't make more things for the sake of making more; they make just as much as they need for the foreseeable future.

Yes, this seems like it. Letter 131 captures these points about the Elves well:

"Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation."

I think "industry" comes under that second type, "domination and tyrannous re-forming", in Professor Tolkien's view.

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

When Dwarves make, they make it an industry. Elves don't; if they had mines, those mines would be smaller and as harmless as possible. Those Elves who lived underground probably had more extensive mines, but still not "industry scale" like the Dwarves, and certainly not "full on destructive" like the orcs. So I think they had some mines, but they were smaller and not used as often.

Excellent exsplanation Galadriel55, given what you have just said I would say that modern day humans are most like dawarves, ore even orcs, anything we make, we make an industry.
This would exsplain why Tolkien never mentioned elves mining in LOTR's or TH. Dawarves mined as an industry, and therefore it was an important part of there way of live. Although elves mines when they needed steel, not to sell steel, in much the same way that a hobbit would fix the roof if it leaked (sorry, couldn't think of a better metaphor) but it wouldn't become part of there way of life. And not being way of life, isn't important enough to the story to be worth mentioning.

[Leaf]

I think this question ties in with a general lack of mundane information about elvish societies. One might as well ask "where did the elves get their leather?". I mean can you picture smelly elvish tanners who are doing this disgusting kind of labour? Yet I'm fairly certain that elves used leather. I don't find this lack of information to be a problem. It's a consequence of the narrow perspective we have access to.

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I realize that I'm talking more about late Third Age ME Elves when I talk about art. The First Age Elves were darker, certainly had less smooth "class systems" and more tensions between them. However, I still think that their essence of creativity rather than destruction is present throughout.

I wonder if this difference in perception has something to do with the hobbitish perspective of the Hobbit/Lord of the rings novels. The Hobbits (especially Sam) seem to idealise and glorify the elves to a certain degree, which might have influenced them (as authors of the red book) in their reports and retelling of the "actual events".

[Axbolt]

Originally Posted by Leaf

I wonder if this difference in perception has something to do with the hobbitish perspective of the Hobbit/Lord of the rings novels. The Hobbits (especially Sam) seem to idealise and glorify the elves to a certain degree

Yes, I guess that is possible and that our image of elves from the books and movies could be compleatly wrong. We did only realy meet nobals and warriors in the storys, and therefore have no real idia about actual elvish civilization and normal life. What we do know will be influanced by 'hobbitish' views.