Prince Imrahil and his mortality - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Elmo · 03-16-2016, 01:52 PM

To sound cheesy for a bit if I may, love doesn't always happen when it is 'allowed'. Unlikely, divide-crossing couples happen all the time in real life. Doesn't mean that there will be a happy ending, like in the case of Mithrellas and Imrahil but I think Tolkien tries to show how it can occur in the most unlikely circumstances and can break down logic and good sense.

Aegnor and Andreth are another example of a doomed romance that didn't contribute greatly to the cause of Arda. Tolkien believed in free will that the Maker would give His children. Love between elf and man should be included in this.

Inziladun · 03-16-2016, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elmo

Tolkien believed in free will that the Maker would give His children. Love between elf and man should be included in this.

Free will, yes, but I think that situation is different.
Men and Elves are so different with respect to life-potential that major complications can arise when they marry and have offspring. They were the Firstborn and the Followers, separated, for a reason. Each had their own contribution to make in Eru's Plan.
However, I do not think it was ever the intention for "free love" to be common between the races. Otherwise, why don't we indeed see more examples? Why are the Eldar/Man unions we do encounter presented as such major events, with relatives of the parties being far from sanguine about it? Why aren't their cases of marrying between Men, Dwarves (ugh), and even Hobbits (ahh!)?

Elmo · 03-16-2016, 02:28 PM

I never said it was elf/man hooks ups were common, it's so rare for several reasons: most people realise it's a stupid idea, the races live separately so there's less interaction and so less chance for love to appear, members of a race probably don't find members of other races attractive... doesn't mean it couldn't happen from time to time. Aegnor and Andreth, Mithrellas and Imrazor, these are the unhappy accidents love sometimes causes.

Belegorn · 03-17-2016, 08:04 AM

I do not think that the Elves and the Edain were that seperate from one another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Of The Coming of Men into the West

many young and eager men of the Edain went away and took service with the kings and.lords of the Eldar. Among them was Malach son of Marach, and he dwelt in Hithlum for fourteen years; and he learned the Elven-tongue and was given the name of Aradan.

Zigûr · 03-17-2016, 08:25 AM

It's probably worth pointing out that when Legolas speaks to Imrahil, he says "'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water."

Imrahil replies "So it is said in the lore of my land [...] yet never has one of the fair folk been seen there for years beyond count."

So regardless of what actually happened, Legolas himself seems to think it's the Mithrellas option. He appears to perceive a trace of "the people of Nimrodel" in Imrahil. Of course he might have just been guessing.

Kuruharan · 03-17-2016, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zigûr

It's probably worth pointing out that when Legolas speaks to Imrahil, he says "'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water."

Imrahil replies "So it is said in the lore of my land [...] yet never has one of the fair folk been seen there for years beyond count."

So regardless of what actually happened, Legolas himself seems to think it's the Mithrellas option. He appears to perceive a trace of "the people of Nimrodel" in Imrahil. Of course he might have just been guessing.

Quite right.

To assume that the line of Dol Amroth did not have elvish blood in its origins is to assume that Legolas was entirely mistaken in his analysis of Imrahil. I don't believe this is a sustainable notion. Elves knew elvishness when they saw it. The only time I can think of when an elf was (briefly) mistaken on this point was when Voronwë first met Tuor and momentarily thought he was an elf...but realized his mistake almost immediately.

Faramir Jones · 03-17-2016, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

The only time I can think of when an elf was (briefly) mistaken on this point was when Voronwë first met Tuor and momentarily thought he was an elf...but realized his mistake almost immediately.

This brief mistake can be accounted for by the fact that the elf in question had recently survived a shipwreck which had drowned all his crewmates.

Nerwen · 04-06-2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Quite right.

To assume that the line of Dol Amroth did not have elvish blood in its origins is to assume that Legolas was entirely mistaken in his analysis of Imrahil. I don't believe this is a sustainable notion. Elves knew elvishness when they saw it. The only time I can think of when an elf was (briefly) mistaken on this point was when Voronwë first met Tuor and momentarily thought he was an elf...but realized his mistake almost immediately.

We can also look at this from a story-external point of view: if Imrahil didn't, in fact, have Elvish ancestry, why include that dialogue at all?

03-16-2016, 01:52 PM	#1
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	To sound cheesy for a bit if I may, love doesn't always happen when it is 'allowed'. Unlikely, divide-crossing couples happen all the time in real life. Doesn't mean that there will be a happy ending, like in the case of Mithrellas and Imrahil but I think Tolkien tries to show how it can occur in the most unlikely circumstances and can break down logic and good sense. Aegnor and Andreth are another example of a doomed romance that didn't contribute greatly to the cause of Arda. Tolkien believed in free will that the Maker would give His children. Love between elf and man should be included in this. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. Last edited by Elmo; 03-16-2016 at 02:30 PM.

03-16-2016, 02:28 PM	#3
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	I never said it was elf/man hooks ups were common, it's so rare for several reasons: most people realise it's a stupid idea, the races live separately so there's less interaction and so less chance for love to appear, members of a race probably don't find members of other races attractive... doesn't mean it couldn't happen from time to time. Aegnor and Andreth, Mithrellas and Imrazor, these are the unhappy accidents love sometimes causes. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. Last edited by Elmo; 03-16-2016 at 02:31 PM.

03-17-2016, 08:25 AM	#5
Zigûr Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 785	It's probably worth pointing out that when Legolas speaks to Imrahil, he says "'It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth's haven west over water." Imrahil replies "So it is said in the lore of my land [...] yet never has one of the fair folk been seen there for years beyond count." So regardless of what actually happened, Legolas himself seems to think it's the Mithrellas option. He appears to perceive a trace of "the people of Nimrodel" in Imrahil. Of course he might have just been guessing. __________________ "Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer.