What Powered The Three?

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

It isn't apparent to me why Celebrimbor would have endowed the Three with different respective powers. They weren't intended for any specific user, and the "Fire", "Air", and "Water" designations may have thus been only for cosmetic reasons with respect to their stones.

The purpose behind their making was to promote general healing and preservation, and that power would have to have been drawn from the fea of the maker(s). The specific use of that power and its manifestation would have been colored by the individual will and desires of the keeper.

I agree. I think the way the Three were used does not necessarily correlate with some "specialisation" on the part of the respective Rings, just the priorities and necessities of their wielders. For instance, Rivendell was not quite a "Land out of Time" to the same extent as Lothlórien, but it seems to me that similar effects of "staying" and preservation were used through Vilya and Nenya in their respective locations.

What Círdan said of Narya, by this logic, could probably be applied to all of them; it may have simply been that Narya was the one Círdan was discussing at the time.

Interestingly, Círdan's claim that Narya was "idle" in his care suggests that Lindon was not under the same "staying" effect as Rivendell or Lórien.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Zigûr

Interestingly, Círdan's claim that Narya was "idle" in his care suggests that Lindon was not under the same "staying" effect as Rivendell or Lórien.

Agreed. Mithlond predated the creation of the Three, and had not been established with any parallel to Rivendell or Lórien. Its role had nothing to do with "preservation", and Círdan seemingly could find no use for Narya there.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Or, perhaps, as a Sinda Cirdan wasn't as prone as the Noldor to play with the laws of Arda and Time.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It isn't apparent to me why Celebrimbor would have endowed the Three with different respective powers. They weren't intended for any specific user, and the "Fire", "Air", and "Water" designations may have thus been only for cosmetic reasons with respect to their stones.

In part. But then in Letter No. 301: Fireworks... appear in the books because they are part of the representation of Gandalf, bearer of the Ring of Fire, the Kindler: the most childlike aspect shown to the Hobbits being fireworks. Note the word repeated in 'The Istari': Círdan... gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red. "For," said he, "great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort... I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage." (Gandalf also uses fire magic on Caradhras (where he says its use announces "Gandalf is here"), and in the fight with the Wargs. Also, although obviously predating the invention of rings, Gandalf in The Hobbit took out several goblins with a "flash;" in the draft for the fight in the Chamber of Mazarbul Gandalf's unnamed spell vs the Balrog "singed an inch off my eyebrows."

It could also perhaps be said that the core of Galdriel's power in Lorien flows from the Silverlode or the Naith where Silverlode and Anduin come together; and her Mirror is a basin of water.

The connection of Elrond and Imladris to Vilya is obscure, but there is his name ("Starry vault"), and the fact that Rivendall above its deep gorge is bounded only by the heavens (although of course the Bruinen seems to be at least as important)

[Ivriniel]

Hello there posters and readers.

@Pitchwife hail Pitwife. May the drommond's granite masts and sails bear thee far from home and safely to return.

Thank you for the interesting materials. Sauron's will for domination was somehow echoed in the Ringspell, with much of his native power poured into the Ring. Some tie of sentience, or presence of Sauron's evil will was permanently present in the Ring, and certainly, the Ring had great power to influence, corrupt and enslave.

The Ring's measure in that regard needed to exceed that of the [is it combined power] of each Elf and her/his Elven wielders? Was it the Fea or the Lorewise-ness of individual Elves that was part of the base 'threshold' level Sauron needed to exceed? And did each Ring add to that measure of critical difference. The Elves took off their Rings when the echoes of the Ringspell were discerned, and Sauron was able to -- was it perceive only? the minds of the wielders of the Three when they wore their Rings.

@Angisil - great to see you. interesting point about non-linear depletions. Shadowfax. It's interesting that The Silmarils did not deplete Feanor, even though they were assays he could not replicate again in a second creation. I wonder, then does this mean that Celebrimbor's assays were his equivalent to one-off feats of mastery? Celebrimbor also made the headache-jewel, the Elessar. Like the Three, (in one version of the Gem) it made things green and young in Beleriand where it was stored.

@Wiliam

Hey there - interesting materials. Thank you for the quotes too. Preservation is some feature of the Three, though exactly what that means, is implied and stated, but in different ways in the mythology. You point out that Narya we see 'kindling hearts to courage', put as the Ring of Fire. Gandalf described himself as "Keeper of the Secret Fire", although I was never sure if he meant that in the context of Narya or not. Preservation through, perhaps resistance to domination, because of instilled courage. Nenya - the Ring of Adamant and the Ring of air - and that's a very interesting idea about the meeting of the flowing Silverlode and Anduin as premise for power. Adamant always seemed to imply 'hardness' or 'steadfastness', which seems to imply a preservation power about holding and sustaining, which certainly is consistent with Time Stop idea about Lorien. Vilya - water - blue stone of sapphire I presume, and considered "mightiest" of the three, and presumably, Elrond's power to heal was implicated in the Ring. Even though it seemed to influence the waters of the Bruinen as well.

@Zigur - you raise an interesting point about what it was that Cirdan mentioned to Gandalf. What was Idle about its placement in Mithlond? Presumably use of a Ring 'announces' location or presence of the wielder. I suspect that the Three also acted in synergy. That is Preservation as each wielder acted in concert in some unified capacity.

@Inziladun - I wonder why the Ring of Fire went to a water harbour. It's such a contrast isn't it.

@Belegorn - Hello there. I think you might be onto something. I have been withholding ideas about power and the 'essence of creation' and the Rings somehow as conduits of Ea that imbues materialism, and spiritualism.

Back Later

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Ivriniel

The Ring's measure in that regard needed to exceed that of the [is it combined power] of each Elf and her/his Elven wielders? Was it the Fea or the Lorewise-ness of individual Elves that was part of the base 'threshold' level Sauron needed to exceed? And did each Ring add to that measure of critical difference. The Elves took off their Rings when the echoes of the Ringspell were discerned, and Sauron was able to -- was it perceive only? the minds of the wielders of the Three when they wore their Rings.

See, I'm not sure this is a question of exceeding a given power level. If we must needs use technological metaphors I'd suggest a different angle: I imagine that the art of Ring-making as Sauron taught it to the Gwaith-i-Mírdain, the 'blueprint' for making Rings of Power, included from the beginning (unbeknownst to them) a hidden 'interface' in every ring that left it open to access from outside, and that the One was designed to access these interfaces and thus allow Sauron to hijack the other Rings and hack their functions. In other words, did the One rule the others because of its exceeding power, or because it and they had been specially designed for the purpose? If the latter, it all boils down to the difference in power between Sauron and whoever held the other Ring.

Zil and Zig (), my soul's ease doesn't depend on whether each of the Three had unique powers or properties or not, but I feel kind of vindicated by William's Letter quote. I half remembered discussing this in some forgotten thread which I managed to unearth today: Elven Rings in the 1st Age. The discussion there may be of some interest to anybody interested in Ring-Lore in general and the Three especially, as may the thread about Nenya and the Headache Jewel I linked in my post.

Anyway, here's what I thought back in 2009:

Originally Posted by Pitchwife as a young, eager and diligent wight who hadn't yet learned to space his paragraphs

Vilya was the Ring of Air, Nenya the Ring of Water. If any of the Three gave its wielder special power over water, it would have been Nenya, not Vilya.
But this leads me to another question. This thread, and the one about Nenya and the Elessar, have made me think a bit about the specific virtues of the Three, in other words the nature of the power each of them conferred on its wielder.
Each of the three is named after one of three elements - Air, Water, and Fire; at first glance, this looks like they gave their wielders power over the respective elements. Now Gandalf, who had Narya, certainly showed exceptional skill in the handling of fire (fireworks, naur an edraith ammen, wielder of the Flame of Anor etc.), but being an incarnate Maiar, he certainly didn't depend on a Ring for this; as for Elrond and Galadriel, I don't see them controlling Air and Water in any obvious way. So what does it mean?
In esoteric thought, the four elements are associated with different faculties of the human mind/soul. Applying these associations to the Three Rings, we get:
Vilya - Air - reason. The chief role of Elrond in LotR and The Hobbit (apart from his being a great healer) is offering counsel, giving advice to others based on his wisdom and knowledge.
Narya - Fire - will and passion. This is the most obvious correspondance: Círdan gave Narya to Gandalf 'for the kindling of all hearts with courage', to strengthen their hope and determination to oppose Sauron.
Nenya - Water - emotion, intuition, the subconscious. This is the least obvious, but (to me at least) it somehow resonates with Galadriel's love and yearning for timeless beauty, as well as the scrying power of her mirror.
I'm not saying any of this was on Tolkien's conscious mind, but it seems to fit, and it may be worth considering if we speculate what use 1st age elves might have made of the Three.

What d'ya think?

[Belegorn]

I think the Elven Rings were made to arrest time, to bring Aman to Middle-earth as was Sauron's pitch to the Elves. In the First Age the Elves generally left Aman for empire in Middle-earth, to establish themselves there and be the rulers. The cessation of the effects of time may have been more important to those who had lived in the Undying Lands which probably accounts for the Rings coming from that people, the Noldor.

I would say the One ruled the others because of its exceeding power and due to the design taught by Sauron to them. I think this common design was the means by which Sauron could link his Ring to the others. Otherwise it'd have been a seperate type of Ring with the same powers, but the bearer could not extend his will from the One to the others.

Originally Posted by Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age

much of the strength and will of Sauron passed into that One Ring; for the power of the Elven-rings was very great, and that which should govern them must be a thing of surpassing potency;