The Dior Dilemma

[William Cloud Hicklin]

If Tuor was allowed to become immortal and live with the elves

IF. It's also highly likely that was just a sentimental legend.

Had he reached Valinor- including by drowning and transport to Mandos- and been permitted to join the Elves of of the Blessed Realm- his case would have been raised as precedent when his son arrived. But instead Mandos, on the latter occasion, flatly declares that no Man may tread the Undying Lands and live.

Dior didn't live long enough for us to point to any unusual longevity; born 470 died 506.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

IF. It's also highly likely that was just a sentimental legend.

Had he reached Valinor- including by drowning and transport to Mandos- and been permitted to join the Elves of of the Blessed Realm- his case would have been raised as precedent when his son arrived. But instead Mandos, on the latter occasion, flatly declares that no Man may tread the Undying Lands and live.

Dior didn't live long enough for us to point to any unusual longevity; born 470 died 506.

Tolkien strongly indicates that Tuor gaining immortality is not just some legend, but accurate.

"Immortality and Mortality being the special gifts of God to the Eruhini (in whose conception and creation the Valar had no part at all) it must be assumed that no alteration of their fundamental kind could be effected by the Valar even in one case: the cases of Lúthien (and Tuor) and the position of their descendants was a direct act of God."

I don't think Tuor arrived in Valinor before his son and even if he did I don't see why his case would be used as a precedent. Tuor like Luthien was allowed to change their natural fate, by a special act of Eru.

The issue with Earendil was deciding what his default fate should be. In the end it was decided that anyone with mortal blood would be mortal, unless given another doom.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The issue with Earendil was not merely that he was half-elven, but that he had set foot in the West. That was what precipitated the discussion (as well as a ban on his return to Middle-earth).* One thing that can be learned about Dior indirectly from the Earendil case is that E was a case of first impression- plainly the Valar had not considered the issue before, which means that there had been no issue raised when Dior died.

Mandos apparently got to make the call himself- his Halls, his rules. I'm pretty sure he ruled "mortal"-- especially since, as mentioned above, both Dior's parents were mortals at the time he was born. Tough luck for Nimloth I guess. (More problematical would be the postmortem fate of Elured and Elurin).

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*I'm not aware that there was any ban on returned or revived Elves recrossing the Great Sea, at least during the Second Age. Even if we take the case of Glorfindel as exceptional, we know that Elves of Eressea sailed at least as far as Numenor.

[Ivriniel]

Some New Matters have popped up since reading the thread.

I loved reading the Letters quote in the post about Tolkien's comments in an 'seeming' unifying of the divided lineage in Aragorn and Arwen, and in relation to the Choice of the Peredhil. Poor Dior. He does leap out as an anomaly, no matter which way you look at it.

Mandos's decree was one about Doom, and it annexed (seemingly) two Elven bloodlines (Earendil Elwing), based on wording of Canon, as presented in the Silmarillion, and as published.

Although the Decree is seemingly basic, it is a precedent with implications: some are temporal (Dior being born prior to it, yet the reincarnation headache), physical (Maia bloodline is present, and (jokingly - is Elwing then the reason Vingilot flies), metaphysical (Elven/Human Unions and the question of Fea) and Spiritual (Valar Worship ideas, and their implications).

In relation to questions of 'Doom' (and Dior's was tied up with the Silmaril. Presumably, being Elwing's forebear he is well within right of claim of the Choice of the Peredhil. Why didn't he get it? Was it because Mandos doesn't 'know' who and who is not living (yet he mans the forts after death - shunting souls this way and that). Presumably he nabbed Dior and put him somewhere. (Upstream I read about possibility of reincarnation).

I add in the presence of Maia blood, as a glaring reason to ponder Dior as having High Doom. Canon is silent, mostly, about Dior, but with such strong basis in Canon-onic (is that a word?) features about the whole area, I would posit that a simple emendation to Annals was highly likely about any of the several areas raised here, had Tolkien been permitted to publish the Silmarillion before he died.

Then, as has been pointed out that the presence of human blood, "however small in measure" is it "disrupts" immortality, or is it alters "Doom--of Kindreds" (i.e., that latter is a question about the Gatekeeper - Mandos).

So - there is the double-Doom interaction question (your 'contributions to major events + your bloodline Doom).

These are questions broader than Dior's fate and I have put them here and at the Half-Elven Foundation.

[Ivriniel]

A second brief post to put the questions:

On Doom: presumably any union with half-elven offspring (noting that Mandos, the Gatekeeper watches the living and the dead) can, by way of Doom can access the equivalent of the descendants of Earendil and Elwing. Why should Mandos never give it consideration again, after a first precedent? (Gilmith is the burning exception to Canon because it is a *fourth* union of Elves and Men. Then Dol Amroth is also a *fifth*, because it's peoples are, I suspect, blended with Elves from Edhellond).

In general, Doom in Middle Earth went to any heroic being. Exemptions to the Grace of passage (related topic) of access to the Straight Road also exist in Frodo, Bilbo - and Sam (Ringbearers), Gimli (significant bond to an Elf during a period of critical history).

Because an actual physical 'body' of half-half can sustain immortality, this also implies that 3/4 casts, etc can also. (That earlier comments raising the item about 'degree of blood'. This must mean that the presence of some human blood does not disrupt potential for immortality.

It is either of a Door Keeping event (Mandos watches the living and the dead) or is it a function of Fea, because some Fea are exceptionally potent, burning or radiant. Presumably this must affect questions of Doom as well.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

presumably any union with half-elven offspring (noting that Mandos, the Gatekeeper watches the living and the dead) can, by way of Doom can access the equivalent of the descendants of Earendil and Elwing.....

...resumably, being Elwing's forebear [Dior] is well within right of claim of the Choice of the Peredhil.

Why would you say that? Manwe was very explicit as to who got the Choice. (Remember also, from the point of view of the Valar as well as the Elves, Men get the better deal: mortality is the Gift of Iluvatar to Men, a gift not even the Valar can take away.)

Also, what is this Doom you speak of? The only text I'm aware of where Tolkien talks of Doom almost as a force, is in Ulmo's conversation with Tuor in the long UT version: and there it is very clearly the Curse of Mandos upon the exiled Noldor he's talking about.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The issue with Earendil was not merely that he was half-elven, but that he had set foot in the West. That was what precipitated the discussion (as well as a ban on his return to Middle-earth).* One thing that can be learned about Dior indirectly from the Earendil case is that E was a case of first impression- plainly the Valar had not considered the issue before, which means that there had been no issue raised when Dior died.

Mandos apparently got to make the call himself- his Halls, his rules. I'm pretty sure he ruled "mortal"-- especially since, as mentioned above, both Dior's parents were mortals at the time he was born. Tough luck for Nimloth I guess. (More problematical would be the postmortem fate of Elured and Elurin).

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*I'm not aware that there was any ban on returned or revived Elves recrossing the Great Sea, at least during the Second Age. Even if we take the case of Glorfindel as exceptional, we know that Elves of Eressea sailed at least as far as Numenor.

On such a great matter as the fate of one of the Children of Illuvatar Mandos is not able to make the call. In fact Manwe specifically says the decision is his alone.

We have no proof either way, but we can give arguments for both sides.

I don't personally see the Valar saying tough luck to Nimloth, about a matter which was not decided and could have been argued either way. If in the case of Tuor who was raised by Elves Illuvatar was prepared to change his fate then I don't see why Dior would not get the same grace. Even more so since he was descendant from a Maiar.

Further more Dior's marriage is never counted as marriage between an Elf and a mortal.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

On such a great matter as the fate of one of the Children of Illuvatar Mandos is not able to make the call.

.....

Further more Dior's marriage is never counted as marriage between an Elf and a mortal.

I don't think Mandos was necessarily deciding their fates here, rather than stating two facts in his interaction with Ulmo. Half-elves are mortals.

If one believes in the rumor in Dol Amroth, than Galador too was a half-Elf. The only difference between him and the others who were granted it, he was not given a choice to choose his Doom. Galador was mortal.

Dior was indeed referred to as an Elf in his title, but if one were to take The Laws and Customs of the Eldar as true than he certainly did not grow up like an Elf.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I don't think Mandos was necessarily deciding their fates here, rather than stating two facts in his interaction with Ulmo. Half-elves are mortals.

If one believes in the rumor in Dol Amroth, than Galador too was a half-Elf. The only difference between him and the others who were granted it, he was not given a choice to choose his Doom. Galador was mortal.

Dior was indeed referred to as an Elf in his title, but if one were to take The Laws and Customs of the Eldar as true than he certainly did not grow up like an Elf.

No I agree that Mandos was not deciding their fates, but stating two facts. My argument was that this was such a grave matter that only Manwe had the right to make the decision. So there was little chance of Mandos making a ruling without first talking to Manwe.

Personally I don't believe in the rumours of the Dol Amroth, but even if we accept the rumours to be true, it's a different situation than Dior. Galdor was born amongst men and grew up with men. Dior on the other hand had lived nearly his entire life with Elves and even ruled Elves. He would later marry an elf and just as importantly Dior's life happened before there was an official ruling. Any intermarriage after the ruling would know what they were getting into.

Dior was only referred to as an Elf, back when Beren was one of the Gnomes, but once Beren was changed to a Man, Dior later refers to himself as the first of the Peredhil.

“Dior their son, it is said, spoke both tongues: his father’s, and his mother’s, the Sindarin of Doriath. For he said: “I am the first of the Peredhil (Half-elven); but I am also the heir of King Elwë, the Eluchil.””

Dior like Earendil and all the other Halfelven grew up at a rate similar to humans if we are to accept the ages given in Laws of Customs.

[Morthoron]

Dior being a three-dimensional character (Maia, Elf and Man) is probably where they got the term Diorama.