The effect of the Great Rings upon Men

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Inziladun:

I'd say there were absorbed by their own rings/the One Ring who then totally controlled and 'bound them'. In a sense they were thus also bound to Sauron but only through the One Ring. I think we can safely say that a new Dark Lord - say, Gandalf or Galadriel, using the One to topple Sauron - would then also have commanded the allegiance of the Nazgûl. Perhaps even before they had dealt with Sauron directly because they most certainly wouldn't have been able to attack or even oppose a powerful wielder of the One - regardless whether Sauron in Barad-dûr had still a body or was already reduced to a powerless spirit.

The question what the Hidden Realm actually is is actually quite intriguing. Are the Nazgûl truly invisible to anyone? I don't think so. The 'default setting' of the One seems to be to make a wearer invisible/draw him/her into the spirit world, and neither Gollum nor Bilbo or Frodo ever had the power/control to change that. What was the purpose of this?

One assume it had to do with Sauron's great desire to find the One after he had lost it, and on the spirit plane it would have been much easier for him to discover such a wearer, perhaps even more so while Sauron himself still lacked a body. After all, everything that was Sauron's or made/accomplished with the One Ring would have become the property of a usurping Dark Lord had he/she been successful at that.

We certainly do know that Sauron himself didn't get invisible to the eyes of men while wearing the Ring (else Elendil would have fought against an invisible man, and Isildur would have cut the Ring off an invisible corpse). Not to mention that wearing the Ring made Sauron appear much more powerful and terrible than he already looked under normal conditions.

We also know that the Nine could make the wearer invisible or make invisible things visible but in their cases, too, they wouldn't have used the 'invisibility feature' not all that often. They wanted to have power over their fellow men, after all. Sometimes they certainly also wanted to sneak around and uncover secrets like Gollum, but most of the time they certainly wanted to be seen as great and powerful people.

Now, the idea is that this invisibility/spirit world feature is only relevant when Men/Dwarves (and perhaps Sindar) wear those rings. The Noldor exist and see on both planes, so any Noldo smith from Eregion forging and later wearing one of the Nine or Seven wouldn't have been invisible to his peers the way Frodo and Bilbo was for theirs (proven by the way Glorfindel looks in Frodo's eyes when he sees him while wearing the One).

So the rings do just alter or add to or sharpen the perception of wearers who are naturally not able to see *everything*. But that is different, I think, from the status of the Nazgûl. They have been changed permanently, and might actually have become closer to 'lesser spirts' of eälar rank. After all, Tolkien's thoughts about the witch-kinig indicate that he wasn't really destroyed by Merry and Éowyn, suggesting that he could have returned eventually had the One Ring not been destroyed soon after.

The history of the Third Age (and the end of the Second) also suggest that the power of the Nazgûl is greatly intertwined with the power of Sauron himself. After he is defeated they 'go into the shadows'. And while Sauron hides in Dol Guldur for about a millennium or more they also seem to grow in power - at least the witch-king is. But when Sauron retreats into the East after Gandalf pays him a visit the Nazgûl suddenly become inactive again - despite the fact that they just recently conquered Minas Ithil and might have been able to press their advantage then and there and destroy Gondor just as the witch-king had destroyed Arthedain. Presumably Sauron's original plan was to do just that but he wasn't ready yet to face Gandalf and thus he had to postpone the entire plan.

We also know that Sauron took the Nine Rings back from the Nazgûl so his direct control/connection to them in the Third Age (after he had taken the rings back, at least) would have worked on the basis of transferring power and orders via the rings. I guess this was a more difficult process then using the One for the same kind of thing, but still effective enough.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I think it's pretty clear that the Nazgul were permanently invisible, including their "original" clothing/armor etc (which Frodo could perceive on Weathertop and at the Ford); the black cloaks (donned of course after "fading" and Sauron's reclamation of their Rings) gave visibility to their forms which were unseen but not incorporeal.

(In an early, rejected draft for the scene at Maggot's house, T appears to be saying that if one put on the Ring and then picked up an object, that object would remain visible since it wasn't in the ringbearer's possession when he flipped the "engage invisibility" switch.)

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

I think it's pretty clear that the Nazgul were permanently invisible, including their "original" clothing/armor etc (which Frodo could perceive on Weathertop and at the Ford); the black cloaks (donned of course after "fading" and Sauron's reclamation of their Rings) gave visibility to their forms which were unseen but not incorporeal.

I'm not sure we have to interpret Frodo's perceptions of the Nazgûl as 'the literal truth'. Granted, during the writing of 'The Lord of the Rings' Tolkien might perhaps envisioned the Ringwraiths as 'invisible men' but Frodo's perception could just as well be remnants of the self-images of the Nazgûl how they saw themselves or wanted to be seen by those who could perceive them as they were.

Sort of similar to the images and impression faded Elves whose bodies had been completely consumed would eventually be able to project to those mortals they would want to come into contact with. Such self-images of the Ringwraiths would, of course, also include clothes, crowns, and whatever else they thought had been important to them in life.

But this doesn't necessarily mean all that stuff was actually *there*.

It is quite clear that the Nazgûl could be harmed by conventional human weaponry but how exactly that worked is unclear. One guesses that part of that has to do with them continuing to interact with 'the physical world' but another great part have to to with the magic imbued in Merry's blade as well as the psychological aspect of the whole thing. The witch-king most likely did really think getting hit by a sword in the middle of his 'face' should get him killed. And thus it did. Or rather it greatly weakened him.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I'm not sure we have to interpret Frodo's perceptions of the Nazgûl as 'the literal truth'. Granted, during the writing of 'The Lord of the Rings' Tolkien might perhaps envisioned the Ringwraiths as 'invisible men' but Frodo's perception could just as well be remnants of the self-images of the Nazgûl how they saw themselves or wanted to be seen by those who could perceive them as they were.

Sort of similar to the images and impression faded Elves whose bodies had been completely consumed would eventually be able to project to those mortals they would want to come into contact with. Such self-images of the Ringwraiths would, of course, also include clothes, crowns, and whatever else they thought had been important to them in life.

But this doesn't necessarily mean all that stuff was actually *there*.

It is quite clear that the Nazgûl could be harmed by conventional human weaponry but how exactly that worked is unclear. One guesses that part of that has to do with them continuing to interact with 'the physical world' but another great part have to to with the magic imbued in Merry's blade as well as the psychological aspect of the whole thing. The witch-king most likely did really think getting hit by a sword in the middle of his 'face' should get him killed. And thus it did. Or rather it greatly weakened him.

I am not sure the witch-king did think being hit by a normal blade would kill him.

I think we have to look back at weathertop to the reaction of the Nazgul when Frodo draws his blade. Two of the Nazgul actually stop and don't make a move for him. Only the Witch King has the courage to still go forward.

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

I think it very likely Éowyn had an ordinary sword.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I think it very likely Éowyn had an ordinary sword.

Yes, but the damage was done after Merry had already stabbed him with what appears to be a deadly blow.

But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it — save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. He was then in league with the High Elves of the Havens.

Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo. But fear of Sauron, and the forces of Sauron's will was the stronger.

Eowyn's blow may have sped up his death, but I believe it was only because of Merry's initial stab which in time would have proven fatal anyway. Much like had Elrond not healed Frodo the Witch King's stab would have proven fatal.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by cellurdur

I am not sure the witch-king did think being hit by a normal blade would kill him.

I think we have to look back at weathertop to the reaction of the Nazgul when Frodo draws his blade. Two of the Nazgul actually stop and don't make a move for him. Only the Witch King has the courage to still go forward.

I am far from convinced that normal, weapons would harm the Nazgul anymore than they would harm a Balrog.

Well, even Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth himself could be harmed by 'normal weapons' if we accept that Elvish (or dwarfish) weapons were also, in a sense, 'normal'.

They were, after all, made by the Eruhíni and not the Valar or Maiar.

Nobody would be claiming weapons like Ringil, Narsil, Aeglos, Glamdring, etc. are playing in the same league as Éowyn's steel, but they would, most likely, not be in the same categories as weapons/artifacts created by the Valar/Maiar.

But we don't really know what the strength of those special weapons was when they were used against a Balrog, Sauron, or a Nazgûl. The touch/words of the Nazgûl (and Sauron) could destroy steel but does this in itself prove that these creatures are also impervious to common steel?

We don't know that. I'm pretty sure Merry's Dúnadan blade dealt the Witch-king a terrible wound, but the killing blow came from Éowyn's sword - or rather the blow who destroy his shape/appearance until such time as Sauron would restore him/he would recover.

It is not just the letter footnote which suggests the Witch-king survived it is also the curious phrasing JRRT uses when he describes that the cry of the Witch-king would never be heard again in that age - which was essentially nearly over. If he had been completely destroyed at this point (or the authors of the Red Book had believed he was dead) then one would expect them to say something like 'his cry was never heard on this earth again'.

[cellurdur]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

Well, even Balrogs, Sauron, and Morgoth himself could be harmed by 'normal weapons' if we accept that Elvish (or dwarfish) weapons were also, in a sense, 'normal'.

They were, after all, made by the Eruhíni and not the Valar or Maiar.

Nobody would be claiming weapons like Ringil, Narsil, Aeglos, Glamdring, etc. are playing in the same league as Éowyn's steel, but they would, most likely, not be in the same categories as weapons/artifacts created by the Valar/Maiar.

But we don't really know what the strength of those special weapons was when they were used against a Balrog, Sauron, or a Nazgûl. The touch/words of the Nazgûl (and Sauron) could destroy steel but does this in itself prove that these creatures are also impervious to common steel?

I would say so. All those weapons you mentioned were forged in the first age. For comparison look at how Sting is able to slice through Shelob's web, but even the blade from the Barrow Downs can't. Another example is that a strong man like Boromir notches his blade striking a cave troll, but Frodo is able to pierce him with Sting.

I doubt Eowyn was wielding a sword even comparable to Boromir's and we see a big difference between his sword and Anduril or Sting.

We don't know that. I'm pretty sure Merry's Dúnadan blade dealt the Witch-king a terrible wound, but the killing blow came from Éowyn's sword - or rather the blow who destroy his shape/appearance until such time as Sauron would restore him/he would recover.

I would agree with this in the same way, that if second Nazgul stabbed Frodo in the head, after the Witch King had already pierced him, then the second Nazgul would have delivered the killing blow. However, that does not mean Merry's blow would not eventually have left the Witch King impotent.

When we take into consideration his other letter, unfortunately I don't remember which one, where he says if at Weathertop Sam had given a glancing blow to a Nazgul they would have fallen down.

Just the appearance of these blades is enough to stop two Nazgul in their tracks.

Further we can't forget that Aragorn tells us that all blades that pierce the Witch King break. This implies the Witch King has been stabbed a few times before and it has been noted that the blades have vanished and not killed him.

It is not just the letter footnote which suggests the Witch-king survived it is also the curious phrasing JRRT uses when he describes that the cry of the Witch-king would never be heard again in that age - which was essentially nearly over. If he had been completely destroyed at this point (or the authors of the Red Book had believed he was dead) then one would expect them to say something like 'his cry was never heard on this earth again'.

You have a point, but Tolkien could have been using biblical language. Being a devout Catholic he would be aware of the times the Bible used phrases like UNTIL, which implies that the something changes at a certain point, but it is not the case.

However, I agree with you there is an implication the Witch King might come back, but surely the destruction of the One would have ended any possibility of that.