Eldarin kingship and succession

[William Cloud Hicklin]

one would have to assume that Ingwe must either be identical with the first unbegotten Elf, Imin, or at least be of his line because else it would be difficult to explain how Ingwe could usurp or rise to the kingship of the Vanyar (and, in fact, all the other Elves) if he was just some random elf who ended up traveling with Orome to Aman.

That doesn't necessarily follow. We know that Elves who had been in Aman were physically and mentally enhanced, very obvious and perceptible traits emphasized at various points early in the LR as well as the Silmarillion. Elwe, Finwe and Ingwe might well have been "just random Elves" with the stones to accept Orome's rather daunting proposition, but when they returned they would have been perceived immediately as "a cut above." Still, given Tolkien's predeliction for noble lineages I venture that if asked he would put those three in the hereditary lines of Imin etc.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

On linguistic changes: have you read Quendi and Eldar, and The Shibboleth of Feanor? Tolkien commented that the Elves delighted in change, including changes in language; they altered their tongues often not because they had to but because they chose to. (Extreme consrrvatism seems to have been a trait of the "fallen" Elves of the later ages, engaged in a sort of cultural taxidermy.)

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[William Cloud Hicklin]

We all know that Galadriel really wore the pants, but at the same time she was careful to observe the polite fiction that her hubby was the senior. Note how to the Company she is always talking about "the Lord of the Galadrim" being and doing this and that, even though it's obvious she's in charge.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Instead, the Eldar (and perhaps all the Quendi) have a specialty of their own. They are immortal and even if slain they never leave the circles of the world. A royal succession makes little for them and is actually a contradictory concept which only makes (some) sense under the special circumstances of Arda Marred (in the sense that a dead king in Middle-earth cannot really return to his people so that for pragmatic another king has to take his place).

Therefore it makes sense to grant administrative rights of the king to still living successors, especially in war-time. But the *true king* of, say, the Noldor would always remain Finwe, regardless where the hell his fea was hanging out right now,

And we know that the kingship can be given to the heirs of a king, usually a son or otherwise close descendant, if a king is actually slain.

That in fact raises a very interesting issue, one which indicates that sometimes Tolkien allowed his sense of drama to outweigh strict adherence to the internal consistency of his subcreation: why did Feanor and Fingolfin nearly come to blows over who was Finwe's heir? In Valinor it simply didn't matter: nobody ever died there (Morgoth's intervention being completely unanticipated). "Heirship" generally would have been utterly meaningless among the Amanyar.

Yet when Tolkien added this massive expansion to The Silmarillion circa 1958 it added the driving force necessary to propel the story forward from the rather tedious history text the 1937/51 version was.

[Gothmog, LoB]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

That doesn't necessarily follow. We know that Elves who had been in Aman were physically and mentally enhanced, very obvious and perceptible traits emphasized at various points early in the LR as well as the Silmarillion. Elwe, Finwe and Ingwe might well have been "just random Elves" with the stones to accept Orome's rather daunting proposition, but when they returned they would have been perceived immediately as "a cut above." Still, given Tolkien's predeliction for noble lineages I venture that if asked he would put those three in the hereditary lines of Imin etc.

I've just listened to the audiobook version of Sil_77 again and Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe are clearly only described as lords of their particular tribes at this point.

So perhaps we should go with the assumption that the 'divine aspect' of Ingwe's kingship either came later or was greatly enhanced later when his nobility of age and his nobility of rank/mind blended each other. From the very day he took his place at Manwe's feet he would have been pretty much sacrosanct for all eternity.

And considering that the concept of 'kingship' in general (in comparison to 'lordship' or being a chieftain) seems to only have come up after contact with the Valar was established the early leaders of the Quendi would have been simply been elected/chosen rather than ruling by right.

But then, the ones they would have chosen would have been their elders, those they thought knew better or more than the most of them.

The proto-Teleri might have been more egalitarian/less inclined to look to their special elders because the Cuiviényarna mentions that the later groups Imin, Tata, and Enel stumbled upon were already awake when they met them. So they would not be so inclined to look to the Three Old Guys for leadership (unlike those who were woken by their elders).

And that fits well in with the fact that Lenwe, Nowe-Círdan, and presumably others rose to lead part of the Quendi, not to mention those original Avari leaders.

On kingship in Valinor:

We can interpret the whole thing as the kingship not being fully developed as a concept. Finwe's descendants are all hungry for glory and lands of their own. The whole struggle who is in charge instead (or immediately beneath) their kingly father might have been the way how the half-brothers dealt with their ambitions.

The fact that the question of Finwe's succession is actually an open question after Finwe's death can be seen as confirmation for both - that the kingship/royal succession was basically a non-existent or not very well established concept (with death being a non-issue) and that primogeniture wasn't as important as one might think. Feanor had many followers, but Fingolfin did, too. Finwe's second marriage brought a rift in the entire house which could not be healed by Feanor stating that he was the elder and thus the guy in charge.

In that sense we should, perhaps, not assume that there were fixed rules for the succession of the Noldorin high-kingship in Middle-earth.

And perhaps Gil-galad only took the high-kingship after the War of Wrath, anyway? I mean, after the Fall of Gondolin there was only one elven kingdom in Beleriand, anyway. If you want to call the dwellings of the Elves at the Mouths and on Balar a 'kingdom'.

I've read both 'Quendi and Eldar' and 'The Shibboleth of Feanor'. It has been a while, though, and I did not really think about the realism of the whole thing.

I can, of course, accept and see how the Elves would play with their languages if they are so inclined. But the idea that they would actually want to change their language to such degrees as the differences between Quenya and Sindarin suggests is pretty much beyond me.

I mean, this could only work if the elder generations would come to accept the changes the younger generations made, and how likely is that if you try to imagine it. Does anybody see, say, Legolas or Arwen teach Círdan how to speak properly? Or Orodreth Ingwe? I don't think so.

As to Galadriel:

Now, the interesting question there is - is Tolkien also of the mind that Celeborn is just this poor figurehead guy with Galadriel calling the shots?

I know you can get this impression but just as Thingol is the King of Doriath - the guy who has the last words and makes all the decisions, heeding Melian's decisions or not (there are certainly instances when he does not care what his wife says, especially in the end) - Celeborn is the Lord of Lórien.

Tolkien has some powerful female figures that are revered (and feared) by men (like Varda, Melian, Galadriel, and Lúthien) but are they really set up as rulers?

I think they are not. They are basically spouses and (aside from the Ruling Queens of Númenor) they are all basically healers, advisers, mothers, and helpers. They are not active in the same way men are.

Haleth may have been an exception, too, but we know to little about her. Although the fact that she (and Telperien) remained unwed is another hint in that direction. Women cannot be married in Tolkien's world to be really independent rulers because if they are married then the proper way for the wife would be to defer to her husband and let either rule him in his own right or in her name.