Authorial Control and World Building

[Belegorn]

I understand the machine to be those magical artifacts that allow one to do things quicker than normal, that is the enhancement of one's abilities, and also results in less of the exercise and growth of one's own inherent abilities. So here I am weilding Vilya. It enhances my own powers without any natural development on my own part.

[Gothmog, LoB]

@Alcuin:

I certainly agree with you that and Clarke that uninitiated people might see and interpret technology as 'magic' if they live in a society in which 'magic' is a thing.
I mean, one can argue that a decent portion of humanity in our day and age wouldn't cry 'Magic!' or 'Demons/gods!' if some sort of seemingly divine (extraterrestrial) entity would show up. We know there is no magic and that technology could be interpreted as magic by a culture/mindset in which magic is still thought to be *real*. But the majority of humanity is actually (or should be) beyond that point.

But I'd assume Clarke and Tolkien wouldn't be on the same page there. Clarke is writing science fiction from a modern/rational point of view. His ontology (if there is any in his stories) most likely doesn't include Cartesian dualism or anything of that sort.

Tolkien writes stories were magical creatures like elves and dwarves actually show up. Equating magic with technology in those stories would we very confusing indeed. For the reader elves, dwarves, angelic beings, etc. would be innately magical and not so because they use incredibly advanced technology.

Both magic as magic and technology as technology are essentially a thing in Tolkien's world. And thus equating or intricately connecting these two (or rather: only the negative aspects of these two as Tolkien sees them) leads to all sorts of strange effects.

For instance, the question how 'magic' as magic is working in Tolkien's world when it can be (at least partially and in its negative aspects/design) be replaced by primitive industrialization-like machines. Wouldn't Dark Lords like Sauron (and would-be Dark Lords like Saruman) use technology and magic for rather different things. Technology/machines for producing or destroying stuff on a grand scale (weapons, armor, etc.) whereas magic would still be used for all those other magical things like the Rings of Power, the palantíri, special magical blades, and so on. Not to mention that the innate 'magical power' of an Ainu would always be present in them, and enable them to create effects they would never be able to duplicate with technology and 'the Machine'.

I hope I can get across what I'm trying to say. I think the whole mortality angle is a different matter. Effects that can be accomplished by the Rings of Power aren't really possible with technology as we know it (and we can safely say that even very advanced technology wouldn't be able to affect 'the soul' because we know it doesn't exist - although, of course, advanced technology might be able to store and preserve memories, generating some sort of weird 'immortality').

If you want to write about the bad aspects of technology/machines it is a very problematic and not easily decipherable way if you do it by using magical artifacts which have powers we would usually understand as 'magical' rather than 'technological'.

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I understand the machine to be those magical artifacts that allow one to do things quicker than normal, that is the enhancement of one's abilities, and also results in less of the exercise and growth of one's own inherent abilities. So here I am weilding Vilya. It enhances my own powers without any natural development on my own part.

I get that in principle, of course. But how this is to be imagined in actuality, is my eye sight getting better, do I become quicker of mind and body, more intelligent, do I get more creative, etc. if I wear a Ring of Power? Is it really that? If so, this has little to do with technology because that only affects the outside world not what's within you - especially if we are talking about 'the Machine'.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by Gothmog, LoB

I get that in principle, of course. But how this is to be imagined in actuality, is my eye sight getting better, do I become quicker of mind and body, more intelligent, do I get more creative, etc. if I wear a Ring of Power? Is it really that? If so, this has little to do with technology because that only affects the outside world not what's within you - especially if we are talking about 'the Machine'.

No just a means to do things more effectively. Like a bulldozer rather than tons of men wielding shovels. I think the Rings did effect the bearers internally because for Elves they were meant to stay the fading that effected their bodies. Fading of course is the body eventually being destroyed, since they grow weaker with time. The spirit and the body of the Elves, which Finrod believed to be derived from the taint of Melkor, could not long endure together. So the body basically became but a memory held by the spirit. I think that this was the reason that mortals felt stretched while bearing these Rings because the effects were meant to be borne by immortals, not mortals. The machine, however, to me, is about the use of devices to make the use of inherent abilities more effective in their application. We are to some degree, in M-E dealing with such devices, Rings of Power.

[Marwhini]

The dangers of Post-Modernism abound. And I tend to be immediately suspect of anyone who cites Foucault.

There is a reason Tolkien placed such a heavy emphasis upon words:

They have specific meanings.

And there is a reason that "Author" and "Authority" have the same roots.

Suggesting that the Author, or the designated heir of a work, has the last word on that work, even if they are dead. Although being dead does present problems for unanswered questions, it does leave the answered questions as rather fixed.

With that in mind, there is a difference between the works of an author (an "authority" on their work/creation) who says "Things are X, Y, and Z, in this world.", and the works of an author who says "I just laid out the framework, and every reader brings something different to the work in question."

Of course these two poles are rarely absolutes, but there are authors who lie very much closer to one pole than the other.

And it very much seems that Tolkien lies very much closer to the former pole than the latter. As the context of his work forbids some interpretations (Frodo and Aragorn as Sub-Saharan Africans, or Mandarin Chinese, just as a couple of examples we can easily rule out), and it fairly closely constrains it to certain types of imagery and cultures within our world, whether allegorically, or simply as Archetypes (something Tolkien was himself unaware of, but that is irrelevant as to whether he was affected by them, just as his being unaware of how Gravity functions makes him no less affected by it).

But there remains still rather a lot of "wiggle" room for interpretation of his works.

MB