Where do elves get metal?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The Sindar, being of course the most numerous and representative of western Elves, had all of Metallica's albums. The Noldor, being far more traditionalist, but enamored of 'technology', listened to Sabbath but did so on streaming audio. The Vanyar off in Valinor were a bit out of the loop and still regarded Iron Butterfly as metal. The Silvan Elves naturally listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They are too metal!"

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Silvan Elves of course listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They really are metal!"

My dad must be a Silvan Elf then.

Another rather obvious bridge I've missed is the one in The Hobbit itself that leads into Rivendell, one which appears to be of a defensive nature:

There was only a narrow bridge of stone without a parapet, as narrow as a pony could well walk on; and over that they had to go, slow and careful, one by one, each leading his pony by the bridle.

Incidentally, Dr. Rateliff is curious about this note of Professor Tolkien's after the end of the revised Chapter III:

Ch. III should make clear
Elrond's care for roads etc. from
Greyflood to <Mountains>

Dr. Rateliff finds this difficult because he does not consider there to be a precedent for Elves doing the road work and thinks it unlikely that Dwarves would have been hired to do it as "that solution runs afoul of this text's statement that dwarves were not welcome here [in Rivendell] and did not know this part of the world well."

However he seems to extrapolate a tad; the text simply says "This country was not well known to the dwarves" (previously "unknown to the dwarves" but Professor Tolkien himself realised this was inconsistent with the fact that they traded between the Iron Hills and the Blue Mountains by traversing that region, and so changed the statement) and says of Rivendell "few dwarves have ever seen it."

Dr. Rateliff takes this as meaning that "the dwarves were not particularly welcome at Rivendell", describing it as a "new and somewhat disconcerting idea, apparently imported back into The Hobbit to match the initially chilly relations between Gimli's people and the elves of Lórien in The Lord of the Rings." He observes that Professor Tolkien originally drafted "no dwarf has ever seen it" but changed it.

To me there are a few too many assumptions here; the idea that few Dwarves had seen Rivendell does not seem particularly "disconcerting" to me, as it does not seem to me that there would be much reason for the Dwarves to go there, or much reason for Elrond to compromise Imladris' secrecy by revealing its location to anyone except other Elves, the Wise and the Dúnedain. Surely if there was meant to be a parallel with Gimli's treatment in Lórien the Elves in the revised Hobbit would have been far more secretive, but they are not. I always assumed that the Silvan Elves of Lórien were simply a little superstitious. I find it unlikely that the Noldor of Imladris bore such prejudices given their history of collaboration with the Dwarves. I assume there were some Sindar at Rivendell as well, but nonetheless I think Dr. Rateliff is making the situation more complex for himself than is necessary. It could quite simply be that Elven craftsmen ventured forth, in secrecy, and maintained the roads when necessary.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Given the substantial numbers of Noldor in Rivendell (and the fact that the Sindar were quite capable of masonry when they felt like it), one doesn't have to boggle at Elrond's folk doing their own road maintenance.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

The Sindar, being of course the most numerous and representative of western Elves, had all of Metallica's albums. The Noldor, being far more traditionalist, but enamored of 'technology', listened to Sabbath but did so on streaming audio. The Vanyar off in Valinor were a bit out of the loop and still regarded Iron Butterfly as metal. The Silvan Elves naturally listened to Jethro Tull and indignantly insisted "They are too metal!"

I must disagree in part. The Silvan Elves started listening to Jethro Tull because of their dealings with the Dwarves, who considered Tull hard rock, of course. Tolkien in a late emendation placed Tull in the metal category, perhaps forgetting about the prior designation. In any case, their defeat of the Sauronian Metallica was eucatastrophic.

[Marwhini]

Just a quick post before I finish reading the rest of the thread:

As someone early in the Thread/Topic observes that Tolkien doesn't say anything about the Elves, or Men of Gondor mining..... And thus we are to "suspect" whether they "mined" for anything.

Yet Tolkien also does not say very much about the Agriculture needed to support the populations involved, nor does he say anything about the populations needed to support the armies he mentions in passing.

Yet if we are examining Middle-earth as if it is an actual Sub-Creation (and thus a Real Place in some Existential Reality), then these sorts of things exist.

We have to constantly be on guard against the Pop-Cultural derivations of Middle-earth (I hear some Kiwi guy made some movies loosely based upon Tolkien's work - One should be cautious when looking at Pop-Culture), and their portrayals as creating stereotypes that deviate from what Prof. Tolkien describes (and there is more in his descriptions than just the words themselves, and their order - those words themselves are clues to other things about Middle-earth).

Tolkien seems to have thought of Middle-earth as a living, breathing world, in which people (Elves, Humans, Dwarves, Hobbits, Orcs, Ents, Dragons, Demons, etc.) lived.

And this means that the Infrastructure of life must also exist within Middle-earth for these people.

MB

[Faramir Jones]

While Tolkien doesn't say much about 'the Agriculture needed to support the populations involved', he does say enough, in my opinion, to hint at the existence of agricuture and communications sufficient to support those populations. In terms of the Shire, he described what it was like before taken over by the hobbits in the Prologue of LotR, and in terms of Gondor, he gave a short description of Minas Tirith's fertile surroundings, particularly the Pelennor Fields, in Book 5, Chapter I.

He went into things in more detail in Letter 154 of 25th September 1954 to Naomi Mitchison:

I am not incapable of or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the 'mortals' go, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that economic likelihood is there and could be worked out: Gondor has sufficient 'townlands' and fiefs with a good water and road approach to provide for its population; and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they [the hobbits] took it over (no doubt with a good deal of older arts and crafts). The Shire-hobbits have no great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends): no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire.

I'm always amused when I read this letter; because Tolkien here uses 'Dwarfs' instead of his usual 'Dwarves'.

[Alcuin]

We know the Númenóreans mined. They obtained metal for farming and tools, then later for weapons; and the only other place in Arda mentioned to have (ore) loads of mithril was Númenor, so they must have mined for that, too.

Eöl the Smith mined somewhere: this was part of his affinity with the Dwarves, which was unusual among the Elves of Beleriand. His son Maeglin was captured by Morgoth’s servants while he on a scouting expedition for veins of ore. Going back even farther, Fëanor dug a fortress along the mountains of the north coast of Valinor, where he and his father Finwë guarded the Silmarilli. (From whom were they guarding them? Was Fëanor already suspicious of Morgoth, or of his brothers, or the Valar in general?)

As for the Shire hobbits, Pippin told Bergil Beregond’s son that his father “farmed the land around Whitwell”: Pippin was a farmer, too. Maggot was a farmer: it seems most of the hobbits farmed or were merchants or tradesmen regarding farming. (Even innkeepers: their customers were farmers.) We are so far removed from the ways of our near ancestors we forget that only 100 years ago, about four in five people were “farmers”: either they farmed exclusively, or had some trade on the side. Even an innkeeper like Butterbur was likely to have a small plot for growing vegetables and keeping some animals (chickens, a cow, perhaps a pig; and we know he stabled horses).

My grandfather was a skilled carpenter, but he lived on a farm and was primarily a farmer: there was no fulltime work for carpenters. He told me all the builders in the rural area where he lived were farmers, and built only seasonally, between crops, or in an emergency: e.g., after a fire. Even today, of the dozen or so farmers I still know, I can only think of two that are full-time farmers (it’s 14- to 16-hour a day work), and one of those is manager of a farm in New England maintained primarily so the locals can see what life was like only a couple of generations ago. (But don’t get lost in rural Vermont or New Hampshire: “Yah cahn’t get theah frahm heah,” are the first directions a farmer give you. It means you have to go back: Take it in the humor in which it’s offered (usually pretty sharp humor), and ask him how to get to someplace from where you can get there.)

Tolkien remembered and loved a way of life that was vanishing, as he himself mentions in Letters.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by Faramir Jones

While Tolkien doesn't say much about 'the Agriculture needed to support the populations involved', he does say enough, in my opinion, to hint at the existence of agricuture and communications sufficient to support those populations. In terms of the Shire, he described what it was like before taken over by the hobbits in the Prologue of LotR, and in terms of Gondor, he gave a short description of Minas Tirith's fertile surroundings, particularly the Pelennor Fields, in Book 5, Chapter I.

He went into things in more detail in Letter 154 of 25th September 1954 to Naomi Mitchison:

I am not incapable of or unaware of economic thought; and I think as far as the 'mortals' go, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarfs, that the situations are so devised that economic likelihood is there and could be worked out: Gondor has sufficient 'townlands' and fiefs with a good water and road approach to provide for its population; and clearly has many industries though these are hardly alluded to. The Shire is placed in a water and mountain situation and a distance from the sea and a latitude that would give it a natural fertility, quite apart from the stated fact that it was a well-tended region when they [the hobbits] took it over (no doubt with a good deal of older arts and crafts). The Shire-hobbits have no great need of metals, but the Dwarfs are agents; and in the east of the Mountains of Lune are some of their mines (as shown in the earlier legends): no doubt, the reason, or one of them, for their often crossing the Shire.

I'm always amused when I read this letter; because Tolkien here uses 'Dwarfs' instead of his usual 'Dwarves'.

I am aware of that letter.

It is a rare instance of having given thought to Logistics.

As far as the Shire is concerned, it is an exception in Middle-earth, being an Almost-Modern (Victorian England) realm plopped down into the Archaic World of Middle-earth.

My point was that he does not mention a great deal of things (even within this letter there is a great deal left unstated or unaddressed - One such Example is the Predator-Prey relationship of Middle-earth in terms of the Human/Hobbit/Dwarf/Elf population to the Populations of the Orcs/Trolls/etc. - If you look at such typical relationships, even among omnivorous apex competitor-predators, such as Bears, you find that Middle-earth's population of Humans/Hobbits/Dwarves/Elves isn't large enough to support a Predatory population that he provides of Orcs and Trolls).

But this relates to the general absence of a lot of things that held up his work in his later life, as he was looking more for Generalized Rules (what he referred to as the "underlying postulates" and "...requirement for a coherent Theological and Metaphysical System" - p. x of Morgoth's Ring).

Having had such a System in Place would have allowed the answers to most of these smaller questions to fall into place with no real effort.

The point was that obviously the Elves had complete civilizations that could provide the Logistics for entire cities and countries, even into the Third Age, if on a smaller scale.

MB

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Marwhini

My point was that he does not mention a great deal of things (even within this letter there is a great deal left unstated or unaddressed - One such Example is the Predator-Prey relationship of Middle-earth in terms of the Human/Hobbit/Dwarf/Elf population to the Populations of the Orcs/Trolls/etc. - If you look at such typical relationships, even among omnivorous apex competitor-predators, such as Bears, you find that Middle-earth's population of Humans/Hobbits/Dwarves/Elves isn't large enough to support a Predatory population that he provides of Orcs and Trolls).

Although I agree with you overarching point this example is very odd. The predator-prey relationship between Men/Hobbit etc and Orcs is not explicitly laid out that's true but most probably because none existed. Sure the Orcs are not averse to human flesh if given the chance but to suggest that there should be a finely balanced eco-system where Orcs as the top predators are prowling at the outskirts of society with humans as their preferred prey is preposterous I must say. Seems like their mainstay was agricultural products such as bread, just like it was for Men.

And the Trolls, as described in the Hobbit... they don't really fit in to the latter, more realistic Middle Earth at all, do they? Seems like they come straight out of a Fairy Tale without any regard for a consistent metaphysical of teleological system. Besides, it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them.

[Faramir Jones]

I agree with skip here, Marwhini, in that while I agree with your overarching point, the example you gave was odd.

While there are indications that Orcs ate human flesh, and had no problems with doing so, I don't think we have enough information to indicate that they did this on a regular basis.

I would disagree with you, skip, in terms of the eating habits of the trolls in The Hobbit. You thought that 'it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them'.

If we look at the book, we first hear and see, from Bilbo's point of view, the three trolls eating mutton and drinking beer. However, one, Tom, is complaining about not having eaten 'manflesh' for a long time, criticising another, William, for bringing them into those parts. William pointed out to Tom and Bert, the third troll, that they ate 'a village and a half' between them, since they came down from the mountains. It's quite clear that they also eat, and have eaten, men.

Tolkien then said that Bilbo should have tried some good quick burgling, or else have told the dwarves that there were three trolls 'in a nasty mood, quite likely to try tosted dwarf, or even pony, for a change'. To men, we can add that trolls like to eat dwarf, as well as pony. Their liking for dwarves is later confirmed; because when Tom saw Balin, he gave 'an awful howl', the reason being that 'Trolls simply detest the very sight of dwarves (uncooked)'.

To be fair to the trolls, they are quite prepared to try new things, in terms of agreeing to eat a hobbit. Later, after the trolls have turned to stone, and their cave found, Bilbo, Gandalf and the dwarves find 'bones on the floor and a nasty smell was in the air', and also find 'lots of clothes', Tolkien telling us they belonged to the trolls' victims.

It's therefore quite clear from what we read that those trolls like eating humans, dwarves, possibly ponies, and are prepared to eat hobbit. While they are prepared to eat sheep and possibly pigs, they seem to prefer beings on two legs. They might, like the pigs in Animal Farm, agree with the slogan, 'Four legs good, two legs better'.

[Marwhini]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Although I agree with you overarching point this example is very odd. The predator-prey relationship between Men/Hobbit etc and Orcs is not explicitly laid out that's true but most probably because none existed. Sure the Orcs are not averse to human flesh if given the chance but to suggest that there should be a finely balanced eco-system where Orcs as the top predators are prowling at the outskirts of society with humans as their preferred prey is preposterous I must say. Seems like their mainstay was agricultural products such as bread, just like it was for Men.

And the Trolls, as described in the Hobbit... they don't really fit in to the latter, more realistic Middle Earth at all, do they? Seems like they come straight out of a Fairy Tale without any regard for a consistent metaphysical of teleological system. Besides, it seems like their mainstay is stealing cattle from farmers or possibly raising them themselves. Cooking a bunch of Dwarves was obvious a novelty for them.

That Orcs depended upon agricultural products means they had to get them somewhere.

If they grew them themselves, then they needed a lot of land on which to do so. While Mordor had the fertile lands of Nurn to feed them, this is not the case for the Hithaeglir.

I bring this up because it was things exactly like this with which Tolkien struggled in his later days, looking specifically for the rules by which the world operated (for which this would be one).

And Orcs do not need to be capturing and eating people to make them predators. That isn't what I meant by that relationship.

Their relationship with all of civilization is that of a predator, who preys upon "Civilization" itself (ruining it, in some fashion).

The manner in which it "Ruins" civilization is secondary.

For instance: Cuckoo Birds have the same Predator:Prey relationship as do raptors like Hawks, Owls, and Eagles with their Prey.

Except the Cuckoo Bird isn't preying upon the other birds to eat them. It is preying upon them to raise their young.

The Cuckoo isn't exactly what you would call a "Parasite" either. But Parasites tend to have similar relationships in populations as do Predator:Prey populations.

And the Orcs fit into a similar relationship with Elves, Hobbits, and Men. They Prey upon the civilization itself, whether taking time to replace things simply destroyed outright, or in replacing things stolen, or people killed, or kidnapped.

Tolkien did not want Middle-earth to be simply a "Fairy Tale."

At the end (from the 1950s onward), he was looking specifically for the "underlying postulates" that formed a "coherent theological and metaphysical system." (p. x of Morgoth's Ring). Those words imply that he needed things to have an explanation for How they worked, and not just that they existed within Middle-earth. They needed a reason to explain their existence, and a means by which they operated (a Metaphysical Explanation).

MB