Werewolf CXI - The Black Breath Ward

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Silver lining - at least maybe we'll get a nursery rhyme named after us, like the plague did?

Sorry for my lateness. Here and reading.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Still reading, but I wanted to mention (mostly regarding Legate and Kuru talking about hinting as to whether or not you're demoralized) - I'd be careful with that. Sally hosted a game similar to this a while back with delayed kills (Shelob and her spiderlings) and there was a bit of an issue regarding secretiveness of privileged information. Sally was fairly lenient that time; she might be a bit more strict this time.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I disagree. (Technical note: according to the rules, nobody is allowed to actually "announce" it, but they can make hints, of course.)

Ok, I missed that. I knew roles couldn't be told, truthfully or not.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If all the villagers, from the next Day on, avoid saying things like "I am not feeling well" just as a banter and only say it when they are actually being affected by the Black Breath, then it could be a decent tool for the village, if the Herbalist cooperates. Because then if one Wolf decides to sow confusion into this and pretends to be sick, then we have two people on the thread who say "oh I slept really badly toNight", and it is clear one of them is probably sick and the other probably an impostor Wolf. Granted, we don't know the roles, so it may be a problem, and if neither of them dies, we don't know whether it is because they were cured, resp which of them was cured, or if they are both Wolves, or whatever. But it is at least something to process; like if one person keeps constantly whining how sick they are and still they aren't dying, then it is bound to become suspicious. But of course, that's just my opinion.

It just seems to me more trouble than benefit. There's already enough ambiguity without giving more opportunity for confusion.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

On balance, my opinion is that we should not lynch somebody toDAY. Given the dynamics of this game I think we need to stretch the game (as it were).

That, and we have precious little to go on toDAY. We are more likely to shoot an innocent than a wolf by firing wildly in the dark.

At this point, the odds of hitting an innocent are certainly better than getting a Conspirator. I still see sense in waiting, but I'm not sold on it totally.

x/d with Shasta

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

We will have to nominate a representative toDAY and we may need to start serious discussions in that line before too much longer.

Agreed. As for myself, I am willing to nominate someone who isn't a wild shot, i.e. probably someone who has been around and posting and whom I have clearer reading on. It is a positive thing that it does not matter that much (at this point) that the person in question must be 100% innocent, because if they turn out to be a Wolf, they still can't act wilfully without having to answer for it.

I am also leaning towards not "lynching" ("sending message to the Guards") anyone at least toDay. After all, it's Kuruharan's horse. I mean, it's Day 1.

[Loslote]

Yes, I agree that we should hold off toDay, and start booting people toMorrow. I may vote for Legate or Kuru, since I trust that they would abstain from selecting someone toNight.

As far as those who hear whispers go, I think that if we have a competing 'reveal', we should also vote for which one the Herbalist should protect. If we get it right, no one will die, and we will know for sure who is innocent and who is evil. If we get it wrong, the unprotected person will die, and we will know that the person we asked the Herbalist to protect was lying.

That relies, of course, on both the cooperation of the Herbalist and the representative, since if the representative decides to muddle around with the deaths, we could mistake the information. In this test, then, we would need to be explicit as to who the representative should kill, and if the representative did not follow instructions, we probably could take that as a red flag about the representative's alignment. I think overall this strategy would work fairly well, so I'm not too worried about competing claims.

Also, according to the Admin thread,

Anyone can claim to have been targeted at any time.

Which is why, while I am very worried about these bothersome fainting spells I've started having, I am not worried about modfire should our dearest Sally grow annoyed by my persistent cough.

[Kuruharan]

Rules question: (I'm sorry, I know we've had 8 months to ask...but I didn't think of it till now)

For clarification, can people be nominated for Representative multiple times? Or sequential times? Can one nominate oneself?

Originally Posted by Loslote

we should also vote for which one the Herbalist should protect.

I don't agree with this so much. I think the Herbalist should have freedom to exercise their judgment.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't agree with this so much. I think the Herbalist should have freedom to exercise their judgment.

We don't want the Herbalist to reveal, ever, since we very badly need to keep them alive. The only way we get any information from the Herbalist at all is if we have a scenario where the Herbalist has a choice to protect two competing claimants and we can decide which one they choose. In this scenario, we can know who was telling the truth and who was lying, which immediately gives us a wolf. If we do know who the Herbalist protected and neither die, we have a known innocent and a known wolf. If we know who was protected and the other dies, we have a known wolf and a dead known innocent. Either of these scenarios is much, much better than if we don't know who the Herbalist protected and they get it right, because then, no one dies, and we end up needing to kill both people, because we know that one is innocent and the other a wolf, but we can never know which.

Freedom to exercise judgement is all well and good, but we should never willingly throw away information.

[Lalaith]

I've read through everyone's posts, I'm still feeling confused and it's nearly my bedtime. I will accept the Wards majority verdict.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Loslote

We don't want the Herbalist to reveal, ever, since we very badly need to keep them alive.

Unless I'm badly mistaken, the Herbalist can't reveal.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Unless I'm badly mistaken, the Herbalist can't reveal.

Oh, true! Still, that means that there is literally no way to get information from the Herbalist aside from organizing in this thread and trusting the Herbalist to go along with what we agree on.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Still reading, but I wanted to mention (mostly regarding Legate and Kuru talking about hinting as to whether or not you're demoralized) - I'd be careful with that. Sally hosted a game similar to this a while back with delayed kills (Shelob and her spiderlings) and there was a bit of an issue regarding secretiveness of privileged information. Sally was fairly lenient that time; she might be a bit more strict this time.

If Peter Jackson calls you asking if you have a mace he can borrow, you're probably overdoing it. Otherwise it should be fine.

As a reminder, I did say people could tell everyone whether or not they're demoralized, but they can also, you know, totally lie about that, so make of that what you will.

[Thinlómien]

Sorry, I've been super busy (and distracted) today, but I'm here now! The game looks like quite an interesting kettle of fish.

Originally Posted by Legate

Okay okay, maybe let's start more slowly. For one: if I got the rules right, then we should select a representative (yeah, a real pity about The Phantom). What I propose however is that also everyone suggests (maybe via a "normal" vote, i.e. bolded and not highlighted?) the name the representative should deliver to the Guards. It is, of course, then up to the Representative whether they behave like a democratically elected representative of the majority and deliver the name of the most suspected person, or whether they pick the person they choose themselves...

Good idea. This is such a small village that we can't really afford to lose the evidence provided by traditional votes.

Originally Posted by Legate

Also, since somebody has to mention this, and once again, the phantom isn't here to supply us with plans: since we are just waiting to get rescued, I wonder if a purposeful tie (or a purposeful miss of vote from the Representative) would actually be benefitial for the village. Meaning, the more there are of us, the greater chance we outnumber the Wolves, the bigger chance the Gifteds aren't mislynched, etc. Discuss?

That's a no from me. No votes = less interested people, less leads to follow, general drop in the vigilance of the masses, also less fun game.

Even though now that I think of it, given that we do not learn the roles of the dead, the evidence votes provide is even more murky than usual. So it's maybe not worth it to take a shot in the dark. But should we really only relay on the kills? And I don't want not to vote just in principle because that goes contrary to all my values!

As for representative, I would favour Legate. He's kinda volunteered by initiating the discussion on the rules, and seems to be up to date with them unlike many others.

edit: xed with the last couple of posts

[Thinlómien]

And oops, I just looked at the clock. Having an adult working schedule and playing werewolf with Americans don't really mix. Vote(s) in a minute, off to brush my teeth etc.

Does anyone else find it strange there has been literally no fingers pointed at anyone during the whole Day? Sure it's Day1 and we have been preoccupied by discussing the rules, but it's still weird. Three of us are still guilty. We should be already be trying to figure out who.

(Even though, if we were just sitting this one out, wouldn't it be hilarious to have a werewolf game where no one voiced a single suspicion against anyone ever? )

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Does anyone else find it strange there has been literally no fingers pointed at anyone during the whole Day? Sure it's Day1 and we have been preoccupied by discussing the rules, but it's still weird. Three of us are still guilty. We should be already be trying to figure out who.

If it is any consolation, there *are* people who have pinged my radar toDAY in not-a-good-way.

However, I have grown convinced that we should not lynch somebody toDAY. This is a very small Ward and we will have little certain information. We are far more likely to do ourselves a mischief by lynching the wrong person toDAY. We have a target date to get to and by erroneous lynches now we can cut ourselves off from reaching that target date. Erroneous lynches are far more likely to happen toDAY than not.

I also, as it turns out, will have to make my vote for representative soon as I have to leave a computer and I may not be able to come back before the deadline.

I am prepared to nominate Legate if he is on board with not lynching somebody toDAY.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Does anyone else find it strange there has been literally no fingers pointed at anyone during the whole Day? Sure it's Day1 and we have been preoccupied by discussing the rules, but it's still weird. Three of us are still guilty. We should be already be trying to figure out who.

True enough. Even though I run into the usual Day 1 quandry of who looks off.

All I can say for the moment is that I'm somewhat reluctant to vote for Legate as the rep.


x/d with Kuru

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And oops, I just looked at the clock. Having an adult working schedule and playing werewolf with Americans don't really mix. Vote(s) in a minute, off to brush my teeth etc.

Does anyone else find it strange there has been literally no fingers pointed at anyone during the whole Day? Sure it's Day1 and we have been preoccupied by discussing the rules, but it's still weird. Three of us are still guilty. We should be already be trying to figure out who.

(Even though, if we were just sitting this one out, wouldn't it be hilarious to have a werewolf game where no one voiced a single suspicion against anyone ever? )

At least this deadline isn't something ridiculous like 3 am for you guys! I'm going to struggle a bit to participate if I'm still alive come Saturday and Sunday - DL is right in the middle of my workday those days.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Looking at the clock, Or more like feeling how sleepy I am becoming, I will probably also vote in a matter of minutes.

Originally Posted by Loslote

Freedom to exercise judgement is all well and good, but we should never willingly throw away information.

I think that should basically be a motto for this game, given how little info we have in general.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Three of us are still guilty.

Confession?

Anyway: as for the Rep, if I happen to be elected, I will definitely pass the wish of the majority, especially if the said wish is not to lynch anyone toDay at all. That is, also, what I would prefer to do myself. Also because lynching is quite an abrupt process, and many people did not get much chance to speak yet (like if we suddenly randomly decided to lynch someone, they wouldn't have much chance to defend themselves).

Otherwise, I would be willing to entrust Lottie with the task. She's been fairly active especially in the second half, and making good points. Among other people I found genuinely active and having good points, there is Kuru. Of the others who have been more active, Inzil I had some strange feelings about in the beginning, and I still cannot completely shake it off (at one point I was just confused about what he was thinking about the rules, though). I must say that despite the above thing being a joke, there is something a bit off about Lommy, too. But there. Preliminary feelings. And what's with other I-would-suspect-to-be-loud people like Boro?

Off to think for a bit and then my rep vote is coming.

EDIT: Oho! x-ed since Lommy.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Okay, I'm going to go on record here as being the dissenting voice as far as no-lynches go; I've never been a fan, to be honest. Lynching is the only tool we have, mechanically, to win the game; it's always seemed counter-intuitive to me to intentionally disarm ourselves in such a way.

This game is fairly different than a normal werewolf game, though, theoretically, and I haven't dissected the numbers as much as some others have, so if it's the will of the majority that we decide not to lynch today, I'll go with it. I suppose it's a bit late in the day anyway, considering no one's suspected anyone else.

But I don't like it.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Oh, and for the Finns that have to vote soon - I think I'd prefer Lottie as representative myself, honestly. That's where I'm leaning, anyway.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Okay, I'm going to go on record here as being the dissenting voice as far as no-lynches go; I've never been a fan, to be honest. Lynching is the only tool we have, mechanically, to win the game; it's always seemed counter-intuitive to me to intentionally disarm ourselves in such a way.

This game is fairly different than a normal werewolf game, though, theoretically, and I haven't dissected the numbers as much as some others have, so if it's the will of the majority that we decide not to lynch today, I'll go with it. I suppose it's a bit late in the day anyway, considering no one's suspected anyone else.

But I don't like it.

I'm not arguing to like it. I don't particularly like it myself. You are correct that ultimately it is our only tool to secure victory.

What I am arguing is that because DAY ONE lynches usually (not always, obviously) are not positive for the village that we take a deliberate step to slow down the pace of the killing.

I would not be arguing this line if we did not have a DAY FIVE/SIX target that has a scenario for a Ward win. Given how little information we will have through the course of the game, I think we need to keep as many options for victory open as possible.

Having this definite end date changes the dynamics of this game, in my estimation.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Shasta

At least this deadline isn't something ridiculous like 3 am for you guys!

It's exactly 3am Finnish time. I was supposed to be in bed at the very latest half an hour ago. A least it's not 6am like in some games.

++Legate

for a rep.

As for the rest

++Inzil

if I actually had to cast a lynch vote toDay. Something a little off about him and his polite and detached yet a little too soup-stirring discussion of the rules. I also found Kuru a tad weird until his latest post which made me feel a lot better about him, and I'm a little conflicted about Lottie but when am I not.

edit: xed with Shasta x2 and Kuru

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm not arguing to like it. I don't particularly like it myself. You are correct that ultimately it is our only tool to secure victory.

What I am arguing is that because DAY ONE lynches usually (not always, obviously) are not positive for the village that we take a deliberate step to slow down the pace of the killing.

I agree - I am usually for lynching Day 1, too. I want to hold our fire toDay partially because we want to keep our numbers up as long as we can, partially because Day 1 lynches can be particularly dangerous for Gifteds, and we desperately need to keep those alive, and partially because we will gain no real information about the person we lynch. We will not learn their alignment, and they probably will not have said enough to tie them back to their fellow wolves even if they did end up being wolves. I think a Day 2 lynch would be much more telling. So, yes, not lynching anyone leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but I do think it would be the best choice to hold off this time, just for toDay.

Edit: Xed with Lommy

[Inziladun]

I'll go with the majority on whether the rep should send a name.

Like I said before, I'm usually of a mind with Shasta in that not voting helps the baddies. This game does have its quirks that skew my feelings a bit though.

If Legate has some nebulous misgivings about me, I would say I reciprocate. It's mainly a feel, though I didn't (don't) agree with him that those receiving notice they're afflicted by the Breath should say so (see my earlier).

x/d with Kuru, Lommy, and Lottie

[Inziladun]

++Kuru

Because he seems to have been around enough to know people's thoughts.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Oh, and for the Finns that have to vote soon - I think I'd prefer Lottie as representative myself, honestly. That's where I'm leaning, anyway.

I agree. That said,

++Lottie

For the reference then, if I *had* to vote for lynch at this point, I would probably go with

++Inzil (but objectively speaking: NO LYNCH TODAY.)

as vaguely outlined in my post above. Vote for him would be a Day 1 vote, so, really based on very little. His style just generally felt different from a classic, innocent Inzil. But that's about that.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I would not be arguing this line if we did not have a DAY FIVE/SIX target that has a scenario for a Ward win. Given how little information we will have through the course of the game, I think we need to keep as many options for victory open as possible.

Having this definite end date changes the dynamics of this game, in my estimation.

Basically like that. This is, for future reference, the example of the way I like Kuru's thinking to go. But, there we are. We shall see what the situation seems like toMorrow, whether the no-lynch is still a good idea, and whatnot.

Good Night folks, let's hope we're gonna get through this nightmare.

EDIT: x-ed with Lottie and Inzils

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Lottie

I'm okay with her being the representative today. I think I'd also be okay with Inzil. I'm going to be heading out here in a bit and I likely won't be here for deadline.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Clarification, since I X'ed with my last post - I would also be okay with Inzil as representative. The faux-votes on him for lynch were strange to me, when there is at least one better candidate for a Day 1 throwaway lynch. Not that we're lynching anyone, apparently, but wanting to lynch someone who's been active as opposed to someone like Lal who has been less so, on the first day, seems counterproductive.

[Loslote]

I would be happy with either Legate or Kuru as representative, since they've both been around, active, and making good points for a while toDay, but I think I'll go with

++Legate

since I agree with more of what he's said thus far. I would not want to vote Inzil, though - he hasn't pinged on my radar, and I think it would be too hasty to vote for him given the village and rules we're playing with this game.

Edit: xed with Shasta

[Kuruharan]

I'm nailing my colors to the mast for toDAY with...

++Legate for Representative on a platform of no lynch for toDAY.

*bows*

Good luck to the Ward and confusion to the Conspirators!

I might be back but I wanted to make sure I got a vote in.

[Boromir88]

My dear sally, some of us are in a constant state of demoralization

I would think the conspirators are going to be active in vying for being a representative. Gives them control of what name to send to the guard. And with no knowing of role upon death, there's no way to verify the intentions of the representative.

There's always that fall back excuse of "well I didn't go with the majority because I felt differently, obviously." And there's really no way to confirm if that's true or not.

Voting for a rep, and clearly stating if you become the rep who would you report to the guards should be a requirement.

For Representative:

++Shasta

Those who don't seek to have the power of deciding another's fate are the most deserving of being a representative.

And who's name I would send in toDay? None. I usually show no mercy when it comes to these things, but this time feels different. A cautious, hold out and stay the course seems like a logical (and winnable) approach. For the time being.

Edit: Writing from my phone means I crossed with a lot of people...last post I read was Kuru's #60

[Nerwen]

I am in favour of no-lynch toDay, and perhaps on any Day when we feel collectively clueless.

For the entire game? I think not. Firstly, it requires basically everything to go our way- the odds of it working aren't actually that good. Secondly- well, what Lommy said- we're not really playing if we just sit passively waiting for rescue, are we?

EDIT:x'd with Kuru and Boro.

[Nerwen]

Anyway-
++Legate for Representative on a "no-lynch" platform.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

My dear sally, some of us are in a constant state of demoralization

I would think the conspirators are going to be active in vying for being a representative. Gives them control of what name to send to the guard. And with no knowing of role upon death, there's no way to verify the intentions of the representative.

There's always that fall back excuse of "well I didn't go with the majority because I felt differently, obviously." And there's really no way to confirm if that's true or not.

Voting for a rep, and clearly stating if you become the rep who would you report to the guards should be a requirement.

Also, recall that in this game we have no "official" way of distinguishing between lynch victim and Night-kill- we just get two dead people each morning (barring saves and no-lynches). So knowing which was *supposed* to be the lynch would help.

[satansaloser2005]

After much discussion, the population of the Ward had made a decision, which was....not to decide much of anything at all.

"We can wait it out," said some.

"We have to take action!" others insisted. "We can't sit around and accept our fate."

"Look at my horse," interjected Kuru. "My horse is-"

"Okay, I guess," said Boro.

One thing everyone agreed on was that the loss of Phantom was truly a tragic one, but even then, there were dissenting voices.

Some time later, the group decided they should select someone to present a message to the guards, but that that person shouldn't actually say anything.

Legate sat cross-legged on a small box full of spare rope pieces. In the end, he stood on it, and the others elected that he would be the one to report to the guards. Still, discussion continued, with some despairing over numbers and others finding some hope in their chances of surviving the next few days.

"The sun is setting," Sally reminded everyone after a time. "You should all turn in for the night."

Legate stayed behind, mulling over what he should, or perhaps should not, tell the guards.


Patients
Nerwen
Kuru
McCaber
Lottie
Lalaith
Lommy
Legate
Dun
Boro
Shasta

The Morgue
Phantom (for posterity)

[satansaloser2005]

Throughout the night, patients tossed and turned, unable to rest for fear that yet another of them would be gone by the dawn.

In the darkness, three of the Ward crept from their respective homes, meeting in a small alley behind an empty cottage.

"Tonight we have to try harder. They mourn for Phantom, and tonight's loss will be great as well, but we must take even more."

"How much more?"

"Well, obviously all of them eventually, but for tonight....well, come with me."

The house they approached had cheery flowers outside, though these were wilting from the cold. Peeking inside the window, they could see a sleeping figure curled in bed, mumbling inaudibly mid-dream.

"Perfect. There will be panic in the streets when they find this one."

"More than Phantom?"

"Don't be ridiculous. You will curse the day, blah blah. Better than Nilp though. Everyone assumed he did that to himself. There will be no such mistake this time."

The third figure drew some rope from under their cloak. "Let's get to work...."

~~~~~~~~

Though sleep did not come easily to any in the Ward, one in particular had been desperate for peace since the previous day. Surprisingly, dreams were pleasant, and in the morning, the sense of dread had lessened. Once out in the sunlight, it seemed like maybe, just maybe, everything would turn out all right.

A new day had come, and with it, new challenges, but also new hope.


Patients
Nerwen
Kuru
McCaber
Lottie
Lalaith
Lommy
Legate
Dun
Boro
Shasta

The Morgue
Phantom (for posterity)

[Inziladun]

So Bard was successful, and no one was dispatched to the guards. Not a bad start.

Ok, I guess it wouldn't hurt for the would-be afflicted to out themselves (cue Legate-180™.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So Bard was successful, and no one was dispatched to the guards. Not a bad start.

Ok, I guess it wouldn't hurt for the would-be afflicted to out themselves (cue Legate-180™.

Give credit to the proper person - I do believe the Herbalist is the person responsible for last Night's miracle.

[Kuruharan]

Thank you, Legate for keeping your word. You are clearly a cut above most legislative representatives throughout history!

/removes hat

Originally Posted by Inziladun

So Bard was successful, and no one was dispatched to the guards. Not a bad start.

Ok, I guess it wouldn't hurt for the would-be afflicted to out themselves (cue Legate-180™.

The way the narration reads to me, it sounds like the Herbalist saved the day.

Xed with Lottie.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Give credit to the proper person - I do believe the Herbalist is the person responsible for last Night's miracle.

I can neither confirm nor deny this.


x'd with Kuru

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I don't agree with this so much. I think the Herbalist should have freedom to exercise their judgment.

In the light of the new Day, one free of the clouds of despair, this does strike me as suspicious - why would you immediately balk at the idea that the Herbalist and the village should plot together unless that makes your job, as a wolf, that much harder? This kind of plan makes it almost impossible for wolves to false reveal as afflicted by the black breath, which makes it much, much more difficult for the wolves' kills to stick. I wouldn't be surprised if this was Kuruwolf panicking a little when he realized how much harder the game would be if we did implement that kind of plan in the event of a false reveal.

Edit: xed with Kuru and with our dear moddess