Transmission theory: what the heck was Tolkien thinking?

[Galin]

Well put Zigur. And my theory is as follows...

"It is remarkable that he never at this time seems to have felt that what he said in this present note provided a resolution of the problem he believed to exist." [referring to Tolkien's...]

"What we have in the Silmarillion, etc. are traditions... handed on by Men in Numenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back -- from the first association of the Dunedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar of Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannnish myths and cosmic ieas."

Christopher Tolkien, JRR Tolkien, Myths Transformed, Text I, Morgoth's Ring

This provides the solution, and I underlined "at this time" because we do have later references from JRRT where he characterizes the Silmarillion as a largely Mannish affair; in other words, I would say he recognized the solution a bit later.

I think Tolkien gave up on the Myths Transformed texts in the sense that he did not need a new Quenta Silmarillion to replace the older one. The beauty of the old concepts could be retained, and other texts or accounts, or even marginal notes by the Wise, could serve to hint at the "truer" nature of things. Texts like the Awakening of the Quendi, for example, being more purely Elvish in authorship, could reveal (as it does) that though the Elves awoke under the stars, they awoke at night, and the Sun already existed before they awoke... to contrast with the Mannish account where Men awaken with the Sun, and the Two Trees get mixed into their version.

I have posted before that I think JRRT "ratified" the Mannish version of the fall of Numenor, called The Drowning of Anadune (DA), which includes that the Western Elves taught that the world is round before the fall of Numenor. The Drowning of Anadune (Mannish tradition) is, I think, meant to stand next to Akallabeth (mixed tradition) in the legendarium as a whole, although I don't think a second version of Quenta Silmarillion was in the works, or necessary.

In my opinion the Myths Transformed texts or notes began as a path to replacement, but whether they were abandoned due to being too invasive, or due to losing beautiful or powerful ideas (or both reasons combined), or some other reason, I think Tolkien ultimately decided (or realized) that he had found the solution anyway -- re-characterizing Quenta Silmarillion as largely Mannish. Add the Numenorean transmission, which garbles things on their long path to Elrond's vaults, some of which then is translated faithfully, Elvish into Westron, by, of all people, a Hobbit from the Shire... though it seems fitting enough given the role of certain hobbits in the fall of Sauron.

The original transmission also explained how we got the legends into Modern English through Elfwine's Old English (adding Tolkien-as-translator's expertise in Old English). The later idea with Bilbo gets us to Westron, although there are some ways that could explain how we got from Westron to Modern English as well.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I don't know if it was quite the case that Tolkien had overtly rejected the ideas he was considering in the Myths Transformed texts, so much as he was ambivalent. He had already, in the late 40s, gone to a round world model and back; and, like us, his modern Science Mind was aware that the Earth is round and orbits a Sun that is at least as old, but his Literature Mind was also aware that his cosmological myth is utterly beautiful if utterly "unscientific."

The whole idea would of course be hard to sustain if followed through completely: the Science Mind knows that the Evening Star is an uninhabitable earth-sized planet millions of miles away, not a guy in a boat with shiny jewel, but it ain't nearly as good a myth.

Besides, how "scientific" is a world with dragons, invisibility rings and giant glowing trees?

[gondowe]

We don´t know what Tolkien could have devised as the "Real transmission theory", but with the data we have the transmission posted by me above is the more plausible theory with its weaks, in my opinion.
In other way, a text like the Awakening of the Quendi never was though, in my opinion again, as a "real history tale" within the Mythology. It was said that it was "Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving elvish fairy-tale or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore" .
Of course this is indepently of the fact that Elves knew the "Truth" and Men don't.
Greetings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Well, yes, IF one assumes that Tolkien was interested in synthesizing two (or three) alternate theories, rather than just picking one and chucking the rest.

I find it interesting that well after both the Myths Transformed essays and the publication of the LR, he was still writing pieces in which Pengolodh was relating lore to Aelfwine- the old Lost Tales-era transmission theory which can't be shoehorned into either of the others without a hydraulic jack!

So at various times he had 4 (or 3-1/2) theories, as follows:

1) 5th century Angle Eriol discovers the Lonely Isle (the future Great Britain) and learns the Elves' history, and witnesses its end. Recorded in "Golden Book of Tavrobel," presumably somehow preserved at Warwick. Essentially "true."

1a) 10th century Anglo-Saxon Aelfwine discovers the Lonely Isle (not Britain) and learns the Elves' history from (Rumil and) Pengolodh. Recorded in Old English, which Tolkien the OE scholar "discovered" and "translated." Essentially "true."

2) Bilbo Baggins translates history from writings in Quenya/Sindarin kept at Rivendell, records them in the mutivolume Red Book, copied in the "Thain's Book" in Gondor, ultimately "discovered" and "translated" by Tolkien the"Westron scholar" along with the earlier parts of the Red Book. Source materials in Elrond's library, and recollections of the Wise, essentially "true."

3) Numenoreans/Dunedain write down "history" which at least in its earlier parts is mingled with Mannish myths and garbles the actual facts as known to the Eldar. Transmission uncertain, but presumably similar to (2). Considerable parts not "true."

There are some real difficulties trying to reconcile any of these, like "solving" a jigsaw puzzle by hammering together pieces that don't actually fit with each other.

[Galin]

WCH wrote: I don't know if it was quite the case that Tolkien had overtly rejected the ideas he was considering in the Myths Transformed texts, so much as he was ambivalent.

Agreed upon the ideas (I don't know either), but he appears to have abandoned the texts themselves anyway (and the reference to the Dome of Varda in the Later Quenta Silmarillion is interesting, in any case).

gondowe wrote: In other way, a text like the Awakening of the Quendi never was though, in my opinion again, as a "real history tale" within the Mythology. It was said that it was "Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving elvish fairy-tale or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore".

Yes, an Elvish fairy tale; and that, I think, is the beauty of it.

Tolkien not only doesn't begin the text with an obvious statement about the sun already existing, but the source itself is arguably questionable as a "historical" source -- but then again, what does the Sun existing before the Elves awaken have to do with "counting lore", or the way in which the First Elves find each other? "It seems my father had resolved (at least for the purposes of this fairy tale) the problem of the name "Star-folk" of the Elves in a beautifully simple way: the first Elves awoke in the late night of unclouded stars, and the stars were their earliest memory." Christopher Tolkien, War of the Jewels

"At least for the purposes of the fairy tale" is noted, but the information is still there for any reader to find and wonder about, especially given the new characterization of Quenta Silmarillion, along with (as I believe) another example like DA, which challenges the Mannish idea of the shape of the World. Within this Elvish text we read that the Quendi awoke in the early twilight before dawn, for example, which would not be a controversial description from the Western Elvish perspective, and offers a nice pathway for a variant interpretation regarding the Sun.

WCH wrote: I find it interesting that well after both the Myths Transformed essays and the publication of the LR, he was still writing pieces in which Pengolodh was relating lore to Aelfwine- the old Lost Tales-era transmission theory which can't be shoehorned into either of the others without a hydraulic jack!

After The Lord of the Rings was published (first edition) yes, but what Elfwine related texts were written well after the Myths Transformed material?

[snip of two older transmission ideas] (...) 2) Bilbo Baggins translates history from writings in Quenya/Sindarin kept at Rivendell, records them in the mutivolume Red Book, copied in the "Thain's Book" in Gondor, ultimately "discovered" and "translated" by Tolkien the"Westron scholar" along with the earlier parts of the Red Book. Source materials in Elrond's library, and recollections of the Wise, essentially "true."

But at this stage we don't really know about what is essentially true with respect to each and every text, do we? Not from an internal perspective at least, I would say. And with respect to the first edition Lord of the Rings, do we really know for sure if a Quenta Silmarillion text was necessarily involved specifically, in Bilbo's material?

3) Numenoreans/Dunedain write down "history" which at least in its earlier parts is mingled with Mannish myths and garbles the actual facts as known to the Eldar. Transmission uncertain, but presumably similar to (2). Considerable parts not "true."

There are some real difficulties trying to reconcile any of these, like "solving" a jigsaw puzzle by hammering together pieces that don't actually fit with each other.

But what's the specific difficulty with the notion: Bilbo Baggins translates certain texts that have come down from the First Age, passed through Numenor, Arnor and Gondor, and ended up in Rivendell. Looking at things externally doesn't necessarily create inconsistencies internally.

Between the first and second editions, in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, it seems we can have lore reaching Rivendell from the South, and we have the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim. And in the second edition, Tolkien adds references to suggest that Bilbo's translations from the Elvish (language) include First Age material. Compare to the First Edition, Appendix A:

"Thus the Red Book contained many annals, genealogies, and traditions of the realms of the South and the North, derived through Bilbo from the books of lore in Rivendell; or through Frodo and Peregrin from the King himself, and from the records of Gondor that he opened to them: such as The Book of the Kings, The Book of the Stewards, and the Akallabeth (that is, The Downfall of Numenor). From Gimli..."

It's not until the second, revised edition that Tolkien notes (in addition to adding the Note on the Shire Records as well): "The ancient legends of the First Age, in which Bilbo's chief interest lay, are very briefly referred to, since they concern the ancestry of Elrond and the Numenorean kings and chieftains." Appendix A

I'm still not sure what the real difficulties are regarding reconciling Bilbo with the Numenorean transmission.

[gondowe]

Originally Posted by Galin

Yes, an Elvish fairy tale; and that, I think, is the beauty of it.

Tolkien not only doesn't begin the text with an obvious statement about the sun already existing, but the source itself is arguably questionable as a "historical" source -- but then again, what does the Sun existing before the Elves awaken have to do with "counting lore", or the way in which the First Elves find each other? "It seems my father had resolved (at least for the purposes of this fairy tale) the problem of the name "Star-folk" of the Elves in a beautifully simple way: the first Elves awoke in the late night of unclouded stars, and the stars were their earliest memory." Christopher Tolkien, War of the Jewels

"At least for the purposes of the fairy tale" is noted, but the information is still there for any reader to find and wonder about, especially given the new characterization of Quenta Silmarillion, along with (as I believe) another example like DA, which challenges the Mannish idea of the shape of the World. Within this Elvish text we read that the Quendi awoke in the early twilight before dawn, for example, which would not be a controversial description from the Western Elvish perspective, and offers a nice pathway for a variant interpretation regarding the Sun.

I agreed, it´s very beautiful. I only wanted to mean that independently of the sun existing previously or not, the "story" of the tale is not "real", the name of the first Elves was not Imin, Tata, Enel etc.

Of course that Tolkien wanted (at least for some years) to change the cosmological myth he developed his whole life. But he couldn't (or at the end wanted). We can assume that the real truth only is known by the Eldar and rediscovered by Men in the Modern Scientific Era.

Greetings

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The problem with trying to merge the "Numenorean" and "Bilbo" theories is simply this: if we want to postulate Bilbo as the vector for garbled Mannish traditions, it's very difficult to imagine that he would not have been told, or already know, that they were bullsh!t: by Elrond, by Glorfindel, by Gandalf, by who knows who else resident in or visiting Rivendell, house of loremasters.

After all, Glorfindel had walked across the Helcaraxe, at least according to the only version of the mythos we have; certainly he would have been in a position to tell Bilbo whether the world was round or flat in the Elder Days!

Between the first and second editions, in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, it seems we can have lore reaching Rivendell from the South, and we have the Numenorean tale of Turin and Mim. And in the second edition, Tolkien adds references to suggest that Bilbo's translations from the Elvish (language) include First Age material. Compare to the First Edition, Appendix A:

Well, I read that passage to mean that material on Gondorian history, as well as the "southern" Gondorian poems, were added by Pippin after Frodo and Bilbo's departure, and were separate from Bilbo's First Age work compiled in Elrond's house from Northern sources. And other parts of later rescensions of the Red Book were added by other hobbits down the generations, including some of the Bombadil poems etc. One of these was apparently influenced by the "Numenorean tale of Mim and the dragon," apparently a different text than Dirhavel's Narn (which wasn't Numenorean). That could have come either from Gondor by way of Piuppin or Arnor by way of Bilbo, there's no way to tell.

But I think we can discount any notion of Gondorian texts influencing Bilbo's work, since Pippin's research trips to Minas Tirith took place after Bilbo had taken ship.