The Way We War

[Nerwen]

See, the trouble with this thread is that within a few replies it turns into the favourite nerd pastime of "Let's Play Medieval Warfare Experts By Linking To Wikipedia A Lot". Hence, I suppose, the otherwise inexplicable 3,000 or so posts about the use of the longbow in the Hundred Years' War. I mean, what does that have to do with anything?

But getting back to the original question:

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I was playing The Fourth Age the other day when something hit me.

I think Tolkien got the dwarven way of war all wrong.

I think in a way he stumbled on this little bit of an issue himself in the battle of the Hornburg when he has Gimli say…

“but I looked on the hillmen and they seemed overlarge for me”

The axe is not exactly a handy weapon for fighting people taller than you are as you expose yourself even more when you make your stroke.

I think a better way would have been if the dwarves fought more along the lines of the Roman legionaries whose fighting style was made to order (literally) for short people fighting taller ones.

There is some evidence of dwarven equipment of this type…speaking of the dwarves of the Iron Hills

“but each of them had a short broad sword at his side and a round shield slung at his back”

Now I’m not suggesting that there is really anything in that to support my idea. I’m presenting this as an idea that I had rather than something that is in any way supported by Tolkien.

Regarding the bolded passage- are Dwarves typically in the position of fighting people significantly taller than themselves? I mean, yes, they can be, but don't Gimli's words suggest he's not accustomed to fighting Men? And indeed most of the references are to Dwarves fighting Orcs, who themselves tend to be on the short side- c.f. the "huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high" in "The Bridge of Khazad-dum".

[Nerwen]

Also, why are "tightly disciplined Roman legionary" and "blood-crazed, rampaging berserker" being presented as the only two possible Dwarven fighting styles?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, why are "tightly disciplined Roman legionary" and "blood-crazed, rampaging berserker" being presented as the only two possible Dwarven fighting styles?

Ummm....because Dwarf ninjas would look kinda funny doing back-flips with Katanas.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Also, why are "tightly disciplined Roman legionary" and "blood-crazed, rampaging berserker" being presented as the only two possible Dwarven fighting styles?

Dunno. Since Tolkien was happy to let the Dwarves use Norse names, I have no problem envisioning them fighting in the Viking fashion, which made use of both the shieldwall and berserker rage. And lots of axes.

(NB: although two-handers or "Dane axes" became the principal weapon of Saxon huscarles and the Varangian Guard towards the end of the Viking era, most Viking fighting axes were one-handers of about 14-18", ideal for using from behind a shield. Gimli keeps his tucked into his belt, which means a one-hander rather than the absurd Frazetta fantasy that movie-Gimli carried.)

[Kuruharan]

Another YouTuber has posted a video on this issue.

Apparently dwarves are popular right now.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Another YouTuber has posted a video on this issue.

Apparently dwarves are popular right now.

Aw, how nice for you, Kuru.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Aw, how nice for you, Kuru.

It is...*\o/*...sorta.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Regarding the bolded passage- are Dwarves typically in the position of fighting people significantly taller than themselves? I mean, yes, they can be, but don't Gimli's words suggest he's not accustomed to fighting Men? And indeed most of the references are to Dwarves fighting Orcs, who themselves tend to be on the short side- c.f. the "huge orc-chieftain, almost man-high" in "The Bridge of Khazad-dum".

I'm fairly sure I recall Orcs being described as roughly the same size as Dwarves, if not smaller, especially Orcs from the Misty Mountains. Also, there's a reference in HoME about it not being uncommon for Dwarves to war with Dwarves of other houses.

So, I think yes, Gimli's remark about the overlarge hillmen is his acknowledgement that Dwarves usually don't war against a significantly taller enemy.

And this battle at the Hornburg is something the movies muddle up. Saruman's attacking force wasn't 10,000 entirely his superior breed of Uruk-hai. It was a mix of Saruman's Uruk-hai, Dunlanders, and your standard/smaller Orcs.

[Zigûr]

I've always had the impression that Orcs varied quite significantly in size, but that in general terms they were shorter than Men. Otherwise the height of Saruman's Uruk-hai would not have been noteworthy. To the same degree, Frodo and Sam were apparently able to convincingly disguise themselves as Orcs in Mordor, which suggests that Orcs could also be rather small. Even the larger soldier-Orcs of Mordor, Sauron's Uruks (which seem to have been different to Saruman's), appear to have been short and broad with long arms, as Grishnákh is described as being.

On the matter of axes, it might be worth noting that Dwarves and the Men of Lossarnach were not the only ones to use them. In the First Age the Elves of Doriath are described as having stores of axes alongside spears and swords, albeit after they met and began working alongside the Dwarves. Beleg brought "great strength of the Sindar armed with axes into Brethil" to the aid of the Haladin.

However, the Noldor smithed axes as weapons in Valinor before they ever met the Dwarves.

Incidentally, it might be possible that the Dwarves would deploy weapons like spears if they encountered Men or taller opponents, and favoured axes in their more common battles, which seem to have been against foes of more manageable size: Orcs and each other.

Nonetheless, I tend to think that the representation of Dwarves as using axes is more a literary device intended to make them seem exotic than a matter of realistic tactics. That is not to say that Professor Tolkien was uninterested in that kind of realism, as I believe he was, but in this case I feel like the concept is perhaps more poetic than necessarily realistic.

Personally I tend to find the idea of the Dwarves of Middle-earth fighting with swords and spears and mattocks alongside the axes more and more appealing as the years go by because knock-offs of Middle-earth have turned the association of Dwarves with axes in Professor Tolkien's work into a tiresome, obsessive cliché. As for Dwarves being depicted fighting with war hammers of all things...