Tolkien's political views

[Boromir88]

Tolkien also referenced Denethor in a similar context.~Kuru

Yes, Denethor is indeed similar to our modern day politicians. The quote from the Appendices is a pretty close description about "and the most improper job of any man, even saints (who at any rate were at least unwilling to take it on), is bossing other men"

Thus pride increased in Denethor together with despair, until he saw in all the deeds of that time only a single combat between the Lord of the White Tower and the Lord of Barad-dur, and mistrusted all others who resisted Sauron, unless they served himself alone.~Appendix A: The Stewards

He's not a politician, in the sense of an elected official. The House of Stewards is a royal line and charged with the rule of Gondor, and having all the authority of a King "until the King comes again." At the beginning, it's said the Stewards executed their duties faithfully. But as time went on, they began believing the King's line was exterminated and the "oath of office" they took to rule in place of the King "until the King comes again" became mere words to recite. Then we get to Denethor, who is compared to a politician, because in his mind, even if Aragorn's claim was true, it doesn't matter. Isildur's line is:

"I would not bow to such a one, last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship and dignity."~The Pyre of Denethor

The King's line no longer claim their hereditary right to rule Gondor, in Denethor's eyes. Denethor's twisting the "hereditary Monarchy" argument around to argue it's the Stewards' line that should have the hereditary right, because Isildur's line hasn't ruled Gondor for thousands of years.

On a separate, but related to the topic note. Would anyone say The Shire is an anarchy? Or at least, the closest example of an anarchy that one might find? Or is it not, because The Shire is under the protection of the High King, and in a general sense follows the King's laws? The elected Mayor has no political power. There is the hereditary titles of the Thain and Master of Buckland, but they don't hold any political power. I suppose if the High Kings had chosen to do so, they could have exercised their authority over the Shire.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

On a separate, but related to the topic note. Would anyone say The Shire is an anarchy? Or at least, the closest example of an anarchy that one might find? Or is it not, because The Shire is under the protection of the High King, and in a general sense follows the King's laws? The elected Mayor has no political power. There is the hereditary titles of the Thain and Master of Buckland, but they don't hold any political power. I suppose if the High Kings had chosen to do so, they could have exercised their authority over the Shire.

It would depend on the definition of anarchy.

To my mind it doesn't quite answer the definition because there are laws (great faithfulness, in fact, to statutes handed down in a time long since past), there is some degree of law-enforcement at least in form, and there is a political sense of the Shire in that in the minds of the inhabitants there are areas that are clearly the Shire and areas that clearly are not.

That being said, the hobbits certainly operate their society on the basis of a far greater level of self-regulation and self-control that human beings regrettably seem unable (or in some cases unallowed) to exercise.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

That being said, the hobbits certainly operate their society on the basis of a far greater level of self-regulation and self-control that human being regrettably seem unable (or in some cases unallowed) to exercise.

Well, the Bree-landers seem to have a pretty similar societal structure to the Shire, even with a mixed racial community. We aren't told if Bree has any equivalent to the Thain or even the Mayor of the Shire, but I'd be inclined to doubt it, since there's no mention of any actions by that person when the ruffians invaded.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, the Bree-landers seem to have a pretty similar societal structure to the Shire, even with a mixed racial community. We aren't told if Bree has any equivalent to the Thain or even the Mayor of the Shire, but I'd be inclined to doubt it, since there's no mention of any actions by that person when the ruffians invaded.

Good point.

However, how are things like the watchmen posted on the gate maintained?

Is it a post per se or is it an inherited obligation?

Also, how does the watchman earn a living? I can't imagine there would be much in the way of tolls that could be collected, at least not enough to live on.

Of course, if there are tolls, who is imposing them?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

However, how are things like the watchmen posted on the gate maintained?

Free drinks at the Pony.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Is it a post per se or is it an inherited obligation?

It's kind of hard to see Bree's gatekeepers as being some honored inherited position. Maybe it's taken by people who just like to see who's coming and going, and maybe have some juicy gossip to impress the folk.

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Also, how does the watchman earn a living? I can't imagine there would be much in the way of tolls that could be collected, at least not enough to live on.

Maybe they're paid by some common fund? I can see that, though it was likely a pittance, and not meant to be more than supplemental income.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

To my mind it doesn't quite answer the definition because there are laws (great faithfulness, in fact, to statutes handed down in a time long sense past), there is some degree of law-enforcement at least in form, and there is a political sense of the Shire in that in the minds of the inhabitants there are areas that are clearly the Shire and areas that clearly are not.

Ah, quite right. There is also a centralized postal system. And it seems there were some legal hoops to jump through in order for Frodo to inherit Bag End from Bilbo. As Lobelia comes by after Bilbo's 2nd disappearance to inspect all the proper documents, only to find out everything is in order.

Is it a post per se or is it an inherited obligation?

Harry Goatleaf is a rather common-sounding name. And he took up with Ferny's lot, so he must not have been paid much. In fact, most of the Bree-folk have surnames that probably aren't so much a proper name, but a common trade/profession. Goatleaf, Appledore, Rushlight, Ferny (think Ferny sold shrubberies as his primary job? )...etc. The most significant figure we meet is

Barliman Butterbur, who is more than a bartender, but a proprietor, and family-owned business the Prancing Pony. He might just be the wealthiest man in town.

[Zigûr]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

He's not a politician, in the sense of an elected official.

I suppose it could be argued that Denethor was not a politician by position, but he used his authority and position in the manner of a politician, most notably in the way that he opposed Sauron because Sauron was his rival for political supremacy in western Middle-earth and not because Sauron was an evil monster who was trying to conquer the earth and replace God.

Denethor was tainted with mere politics: hence his failure, and his mistrust of Faramir. It had become for him a prime motive to preserve the polity of Gondor, as it was, against another potentate, who had made himself stronger and was to be feared and opposed for that reason rather than because he was ruthless and wicked. (Letter 183)

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Maybe they're paid by some common fund? I can see that, though it was likely a pittance, and not meant to be more than supplemental income.

Somebody would have to administer a common fund though.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Ah, quite right. There is also a centralized postal system. And it seems there were some legal hoops to jump through in order for Frodo to inherit Bag End from Bilbo. As Lobelia comes by after Bilbo's 2nd disappearance to inspect all the proper documents, only to find out everything is in order.

Once has to wonder if that level of legal detail was handed down by the Kings of Arnor or if that was something that developed among the hobbits themselves.

Barliman Butterbur, who is more than a bartender, but a proprietor, and family-owned business the Prancing Pony. He might just be the wealthiest man in town.

I wonder if the town of Bree developed around the inn. That might, in fact, make Butterbur the most important man in town.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Somebody would have to administer a common fund though.



Once has to wonder if that level of legal detail was handed down by the Kings of Arnor or if that was something that developed among the hobbits themselves.

It is not hard to believe that some form of legal or banking firms were started in the Shire. After all the auctioneer/law firm of Messrs. Grubb, Grubb and Burrowes indicates a partnership, the early rudiment of incorporation. The fact that there were wills duly witnessed and in legalese indicates the sinister shadow of lawyers lurking in Hobbiton.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The fact that there were wills duly witnessed and in legalese indicates the sinister shadow of lawyers lurking in Hobbiton.

Undoubtedly how Saruman gained his foothold.

Sackville-Baggins sounds like the name of a legal firm if ever I heard one.

[Mithadan]

Morthoron: The fact that there were wills duly witnessed and in legalese indicates the sinister shadow of lawyers lurking in Hobbiton.

*Mithadan begins to prepare a writ of capias and petition for bodily arrest. Sinister lawyers... indeed!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

The fact that there were wills duly witnessed and in legalese indicates the sinister shadow of lawyers lurking in Hobbiton.

Indeed T somewhere wrote that Otho Sackville-Baggins was a lawyer.