Orc intergration after the War?

[Mithadan]

Kuruharan: Of course, this also even opens the door to questioning if Elves and Humans were really different "species" or just different types of the same "species."

This issue was addressed, to an extent, by Tolkien. In his "philosophical" writings, published in Morgoth's Ring, he suggests that Elves and Men are, physically, indistinguishable. This explains why the unions of Elves and Men resulted in the birth of children. The difference between the two races is found in the strength of the bond between their "spirits" (the feär) and their bodies (the hroär). In Elves, the bond is strong so that the spirit and body remain joined for the life of Arda, or at least until the body fades leaving only the spirit. For this reason, Elves do not generally suffer from disease and recover from injury far faster than Men. In Men, the bond is weak, so that the spirit and body are easily separated over time or as the result of injury or disease (death).

Morgoth's Ring also contains musings regarding the origin of Orcs. The Silmarillion seems to give Orcs an Elvish origin; that Morgoth corrupted Elves, making the race of the Orcs. Tolkien appears to have later disliked this concept, and suggested that Orcs were of a Mannish origin or perhaps were even corrupted beasts. He never truly resolved this conflict. If Orcs were of Mannish origin, the Silmarillion would require substantial revision as Orcs clearly pre-dated the awakening of Men.

At any rate, if Orcs were of either Elvish or Mannish origin, they would have consciousness and possess spirits, leading to Tolkien's thoughts on redemption. They would also have been able to breed with Elves or Men as is implied in LOTR. So, theoretically, Orcs might have, at least biologically, been able to become integrated with Men after Sauron's fall. Whether they actually did is a matter of speculation. Perhaps, after the passage of time, any physical corruption might have faded so that they appeared to be more like Men. Again, rank speculation.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by skip spence

Also, when the Eldar first espied Orcs in Beleriand they took them for Avari gone wild.

-and-

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Perhaps, after the passage of time, any physical corruption might have faded so that they appeared to be more like Men. Again, rank speculation.

I have to wonder just to what degree orcs were physically different from Elves or Humans.

They couldn't have been all that dissimilar if the Elves in the First Age originally thought that orcs were wild Elves.

Of course, Elves in the First Age seemed to suffer from an odd form of myopia because they also mistook the Petty-Dwarves for animals...

Still, the instances of specific description that we get seem to indicate that orcs could be expected to be short and squat with proportionally longer arms than one would find on an Elf or Man. If one is following the bestial theory of orcish origin, this clearly suggests an ape as being the original breeding stock.

I can only recall one specific place where an orc (and it was just one that seemed to be described this way) was described as "fanged." That was by Pippin during the first stage of his captivity where the "yellow-fanged" orc was one of Pippin's guards and was subsequently killed by the Isengarders.

Out of this one passage the idea that all orcs have massive fangs or tusks seems to have grown in the popular imagination to the point that when one says "orc" that is just part of the mental image.

Does anybody else recall another instance where an orc is described as "fanged?"

[Morthoron]

Goblins could fit into human society, all it would take is a bit of well-timed orcestration.

In The Hobbit (the "Over Hill and Under Hill" chapter), Tolkien writes of Orcs:

It is not unlikely that they invented some of the machines that have since troubled the world, especially the ingenious devices for killing large numbers of people at once, for wheels and engines and explosions always delighted them, and also not working with their own hands more than they could help; but in those days and those wild parts they had not advanced (as it is called) so far.

The emphasis above is mine. Interesting Tolkien sees them as advancing technologically, which would indicate a period far beyond the War of the Rings it seems to me, particularly with Tolkien inferring that in some future era would rise the Orkish invention of weapons of mass destruction, engines and explosives.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by skip spence

isn't there a throw-away line in The Hobbit that says that there are still Orcs a plenty in modern times? That they are ingenious and prolific inventors of weapons among other nasty habits?

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Goblins could fit into human society, all it would take is a bit of well-timed orcestration.

In The Hobbit (the "Over Hill and Under Hill" chapter), Tolkien writes of Orcs:

The emphasis above is mine. Interesting Tolkien sees them as advancing technologically, which would indicate a period far beyond the War of the Rings it seems to me, particularly with Tolkien inferring that in some future era would rise the Orkish invention of weapons of mass destruction, engines and explosives.

Yeah that's the quote I was thinking of! And yeah, one certainly gets the impression Tolkien felt Orcs were both prolific and well integrated into human societies during the 20th century, if not in Rohan or Gondor during the 3rd Age.