Peter Jackson Explains Why the ‘Hobbit’ Movies Are Such a Huge Mess

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

I'll defend the Pippin Armor Well scene.
The book has Pippin deliberately drop a stone in the well. It never sat well with me that that somehow alerted the goblins and orcs. The armor on the other hand a loud banging clanging ruckus makes much more sense to me.

You know what, though, to me that's a perfect illustration of what works in a novel vs a film, with neither necessarily being superior.

In the book, Pippin idly drops a stone down the well in the guard-room; they hear the ominous "tom-tap-tom" hammer, and hope nothing will come of it. This seems to be correct, they go on their way, and only later when they get ambushed in the Chamber of Mazarbul does it become clear that the goblins- or as it may be orcs- which are of course the same thing- or are they? were alerted.

In the film, the well is in the Chamber and the stone is replaced by an armoured skeleton which makes an awful clatter and causes an immediate response from the denizens of Moria.

Both of these are fine with respect to their different formats- a novel can afford to move slower and spend more time building up atmosphere; a film has to be quicker and (often) more spectacular.

[Galin]

I didn't mind the armor in the well bit... Rhys-Davies sounding like Bert Lahr's sobbing lion was a far more horrific sound to my ear.

And yes, I can bloat any thread with pages and pages of goblin versus orc blather. I've done it before.

We all have our hobbies

[Boromir88]

The Appendices to the Extended Editions of the LOTR trilogy are well worth viewing (at least for myself, I don't think they would be for Inzil ). It explains a lot of the decisions Jackson & Co. made. I disagree that some of the character alterations were necessary, but it does show the time and care that was put into the LOTR films. I see what The Sixth Wizard means with "the spirit" argument, you get to see how everyone involved in the making of the films was a part in their success...from Alan Lee's and John Howe's involvement, Tom Shippey and Christopher Lee, set design, the bigatures, costume design, just the years of planning and pre-production that went into it...etc.

I don't agree with Faramir's alteration, Théoden's, Frodo's and some others. But I do understand the reasons for Denethor's (I don't see the need to have a scene with him being a slob). There was going to be an EE scene revealing Denethor also having a palantir, but ultimately it was removed even from the Extended because there just wasn't sufficient time to establish why Denethor has a palantir as well. Jackson didn't want to give the impression he was in league with Saruman and Sauron, but that he was a noble man that has been beaten down with grief by the death of his son (sons) and hopeless situation. In the end, it's got to be about Aragorn's arc becoming the King and saving his people. So an over-the-top portrayal of Denethor makes sense given the limited screen time and where Aragorn's arc has to end. He's clearly caricatured as a mad man, but the reasons for his madness are the same as Denethor's decline in the books...grief, despair and hopelessness.

Boromir's scene with Aragorn in Lothlorien is one of my favorites..."My father is a noble man, but his rule is failing. He looks to me to make things right." (Then Boromir describes the White Tower of Ecthelion, which is a description lifted right from the books..."Glimmering like a spike of pearl and silver...etc). But it establishes Gondor's desperation and need for the King's return.

In the movies, Denethor's motivations for not lighting the beacons is stated as "Do you think the eyes of the White Tower are blind?" He knows Aragorn is with Théoden and he "will not bow to this ranger from the North; last of a ragged house long bereft of lordship."

Denethor sending Faramir off on a death mission to retake Osgiliath. Gandalf's call out "Your father loves you Faramir. He will remember it before the end." And in the Pyre scene, Denethor shouting "You will not take my son from me."

So, overall, Denethor's decline into madness, while being over-the-top is caused by the same reasons as the books. He becomes tainted by politics, grief and despair. I think the one mistake they made with him (besides his eating habits), is I sorely miss the exchange between Faramir and Denethor (in the books)...when Faramir reminds his father that it was he who gave Boromir leave to Rivendell, and Denethor's reply "stir not the bitterness in the cup that I mixed for myself." (The Siege of Gondor). Such a wonderful line from the books, that I think John Noble could have pulled off masterfully.

I've said enough about The Hobbit trilogy being bloated, rushed, slapped together with CGI, it doesn't come close to the time and care that was put into the LOTR films and it really shows.

[Boromir88]

the book is inviolate no matter what some filmmaker does with it on screen... that said, I think films can undermine book experiences in ways and measures, which is why I would advise folks read Tolkien's books before seeing Jackson's films.~Galin

I agree, in many ways the descriptions that are given in the books are tainted by the visuals of the movie. The "legacy" of the books aren't in danger, but it's hard to shake off the visuals of the movies after watching them, when reading the books. New Zealand really wasn't a good setting for Middle-earth.

Also, not that I'm complaining much, but the movies definitely portray a softer Boromir than Tolkien's Boromir.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I agree, in many ways the descriptions that are given in the books are tainted by the visuals of the movie. The "legacy" of the books aren't in danger, but it's hard to shake off the visuals of the movies after watching them, when reading the books. New Zealand really wasn't a good setting for Middle-earth.

I think the visuals are the last things to complain about, actually.

Also, not that I'm complaining much, but the movies definitely portray a softer Boromir than Tolkien's Boromir.

True, but for me that comes under the heading of "Logically and artistically justifiable changes".

[Morthoron]

Perhaps I am being picky, but as someone who has ridden a fair number of horses over the years, it seems that the lumpy New Zealand terrain they chose to represent Rohan would be the last place in Middle-earth to have a thriving horse culture.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Perhaps I am being picky, but as someone who has ridden a fair number of horses over the years, it seems that the lumpy New Zealand terrain they chose to represent Rohan would be the last place in Middle-earth to have a thriving horse culture.

All right, I concede you have a point there. But in general the New Zealand locations look "right" to me. It's subjective, of course.

[Nerwen]

Boro, my problem with the film version of Denethor is that he comes across throughout as feeble and self-indulgent, such that it has no real impact when he finally cracks completely- whereas in the book it's really horrifying. A missed opportunity, I think- and I'd say he's given enough scenes to have been done "properly".

Originally Posted by Galin

I didn't mind the armor in the well bit... Rhys-Davies sounding like Bert Lahr's sobbing lion was a far more horrific sound to my ear.

And yes, I can bloat any thread with pages and pages of goblin versus orc blather. I've done it before.

We all have our hobbies

Speaking of missed opportunities, how is it that neither book nor films clarified this vital point? Surely the famous Exposition Elf could have helped out? In Moria, for instance-

BOROMIR
(grimly)
This is no mine ... It's a tomb!

GIMLI
(in horror)
Oh ... no ... no ... no...!

LEGOLAS pulls a crude arrow out of a SKELETON.

LEGOLAS
Goblins. Technically speaking, most authorities regard Goblins and Orcs as being effectively the same kind of creature, but in practice we tend to use the term "Goblin" to refer to the smaller breeds only, whereas...

The FELLOWSHIP draws swords and backs away, towards the ENTRANCE, while LEGOLAS continues to BABBLE like an IDIOT.

BOROMIR
We make for the Gap of Rohan. We should
never have brought Legolas.