Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Living Thread

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Fair enough, since I'm leaning toward voting you again, barring some sudden revelation.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Why, though?

I would also like to hear your reasons for voting Nerwen, both toDay and yesterDay, if you have the time. I thought your vote yesterDay came from not a lot of build up, and I don't know that I see where your suspicion comes from, even though it has been very consistent. I don't know that I buy that your slip is necessarily proof of evil, but your comments about the Dead Thread earlier did seem to be aimed more at distraction and prolonging the conversation than actual clarification. I could see a [wolf trying to keep the discussion on Dead Thread mechanics in order to prevent us from looking for wolves.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Why, though?

Originally Posted by Loslote

I would also like to hear your reasons for voting Nerwen, both toDay and yesterDay, if you have the time. I thought your vote yesterDay came from not a lot of build up, and I don't know that I see where your suspicion comes from, even though it has been very consistent. I don't know that I buy that your slip is necessarily proof of evil, but your comments about the Dead Thread earlier did seem to be aimed more at distraction and prolonging the conversation than actual clarification. I could see a [wolf trying to keep the discussion on Dead Thread mechanics in order to prevent us from looking for wolves.

Yesterday's vote I (very) briefly explained here

ToDay, I face a similar situation in that I'm going to have to vote fairly soon. I thought her jumping in my 'slip' had a pouncing feel to it. And like I said, a lot of people haven't been around much, if at all.

As for my 'prolonging the conversation' about the Dead Thread, it took two (or more) to tango. If it was thought I was trying to waste time or distract, people could have ignored me.

x/d with Nog

[Inziladun]

So:

++Nerwen

[Loslote]

I am feeling better about Nog after his more recent posts, and worse about Zil, who has seemed more defensive than I would have expected. His suspicion of Nerwen also feels strange - it's too insistent for the justification of "she feels off and would be good in the Dead Thread if guilty", which I think is all he has thus far offered. That, plus he didn't like how she jumped on a possible slip, which I thought seemed like an innocent spotting what really did look like a possible slip. I wouldn't mind voting for Zil toDay.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Based on that, it seems like the wolf isn't actually a wolf until dawn breaks. I think. Could we get a rule clarification, Kuru?

Sure.

And the answer is more or less.

While "everything" is assumed to have happened during a NIGHT phase, this does also implicitly create an order in which things occur. For example, Ranger Pick effectively has to come first in order for the skill to be used at all, then Evil actions, and so on and so forth.

And I'm afraid that is as much of an answer as I can give to Nog's question too.

The answer to that question is baked into the geography of the game.

I know it may be frustrating and seem like I don't understand the question, but I could not possibly answer that particular question. It is part of the game. The most definitive statement I can make is that the game is still going on right now. The Party has not won. Everyone can make of that what they will.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Sure.
And I'm afraid that is as much of an answer as I can give to Nog's question too.

The answer to that question is baked into the geography of the game.

I know it may be frustrating and seem like I don't understand the question, but I could not possibly answer that particular question. It is part of the game. The most definitive statement I can make is that the game is still going on right now. The Party has not won. Everyone can make of that what they will.

Okay.

That makes one think indeed...

When there is not a clear-cut answer, something is tricksy.

Without any major light bulbs immediately flashing over my head I'll pull back to reading how D1 went, but this sure is interesting indeed. We need to thinks about this as well.

[Lalaith]

I've read over today's posts. Brinn, Legate and Mith are offering opinions that are both trenchant and sensible and thus to me feeling non-wolfish.

Well...Kuru's "clarification" is interesting. However despite this I'm still feeling a bit concerned about the people who are arguing that there might have been no wolf created on Night One. Maybe I'm just a simple uncomplicated sort of girl but I maintain that it seems such a weird and risky strategy for a EW to adopt that as a theory it's exactly the sort of bone a bunch of wolves might concoct to throw to the crowd to get them off the scent. So Nerwen, Eomer, Boro, ho hum to y'all. Nogs is coming up with lots of theories all scattergun-like, including the no-wolf-on-N1, but that's his way, as I recall, and so I'll hold off there for a while.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Nogs is coming up with lots of theories all scattergun-like, including the no-wolf-on-N1, but that's his way, as I recall, and so I'll hold off there for a while.

I've been thinking it most probable that there was a wolf already on D1 - why would I have spent the last hour reading the posts from yesterDay if I didn't think there was?

If there was only the EW on D1 the D1 was mostly futile as there is no relations to read - as there were none. But if there was a wolf and an EW, then it becomes at least theoretically possible to find something.

I asked about it because I wanted to know whether we could actually KNOW it or whether we could only think it probable. I mean if N2 kill is impossible with a wolf turned only on that very same Night, then it is a proven thing there was a wolf on D1 in the game (as there was a confirmed kill) - if it is possible for the EW to make her first wolf and make a kill during the same Night, then it would be only probable there still was a wolf among us on D1.

The only thing that now kind of troubles me is the way Kuru has avoided answering that question... but without any better leads I'lll stick to the idea that there was a wolf on D1 and I'm currently looking for any jackpots on D1 voting which ended in a tie - so is there anything looking like a helping hand -situation where a baddie helped another to avoid the gallows?

Hope that cleared my meaning...

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I've read over today's posts. Brinn, Legate and Mith are offering opinions that are both trenchant and sensible and thus to me feeling non-wolfish.

Well...Kuru's "clarification" is interesting. However despite this I'm still feeling a bit concerned about the people who are arguing that there might have been no wolf created on Night One. Maybe I'm just a simple uncomplicated sort of girl but I maintain that it seems such a weird and risky strategy for a EW to adopt that as a theory it's exactly the sort of bone a bunch of wolves might concoct to throw to the crowd to get them off the scent. So Nerwen, Eomer, Boro, ho hum to y'all. Nogs is coming up with lots of theories all scattergun-like, including the no-wolf-on-N1, but that's his way, as I recall, and so I'll hold off there for a while.

Except I, for one, am not arguing it. I began by saying that I believed we could now be certain that a wolf had been created Night One, then realised we technically couldn't be [I]certain[I]. And I believe you'll find this is so of other people you list. The only one I recall actually promoting the idea is Boro- who has been generally weird, sure.

Edit: x'd with many.

[Mithalwen]

OK, so I Inzil, you don't think it is worth considering looking at Morsul, you don't think trying to get information out the dead will be useful and you have voted for one of the people who seems to have a good grasp of the situation. I fully appreciate we don't have a lot but it makes it even more odd that you dismiss it. I didn't miss a cobbler role in the list did I?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I was intending to break a tie. But I'll take the rest to the grave with me.

This sounds so awfully fishy that you must be aware that it does. What Lommy just said about the Cobbler-acting. I am not really sure what you are playing at here, but either you adopted some really awkward style or there is something else you are running here.

I mean this goes exactly into the book "a Wolf or EW would not act so boldly, except if they wanted us to think just that". Maybe a straight question, then - do you still want to be lynched or not?

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, they don't have to empower anyone, do they?

The Dead don't have to empower anyone, but if there is at least one Wolf there, they could simply vote regardless of what other people want and cause a mess. I remember in the last game dead Mac was trolling as if there were no tomorrow, and mostly only by sheer numbers did he not succeed.

Zil - according to what you linked, yesterDay you said you voted Nerwen because she felt more "guarded" than usual, is that still valid? Because now you said that you are voting her based on her jump on you, but these are two different things. Just seems to me like purposefully going after one suspect (which a Wolf could do to seem "consistent").

Also, all this talk about Dead thread is all fine and dandy, but I would too prefer to vote early-ish toDay and I think we can still specify any exact rules for communicating with the Dead thread toMorrow, when it will (presumably) finally be relevant.

(Although then again, as early as possible. Because we don't want to end up with leaving the Dead with no directions until two minutes before DL. At least there won't be a host of them yet, so they will probably be able to react more flexibly.)

EDIT: x-ed since Zil's vote

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Because we don't want to end up with leaving the Dead with no directions until two minutes before DL.

I'll promise not to come back to this issue any more toDay, but... should we learn to think that the Living (who are blind and contested more strongly by evil) are in no position to "leave directions" to the Dead (who will eventually know and understand things) but they should be "leaving directions" to the Living?



Now off to other issues... aka. back to yesterDay's voting.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'll promise not to come back to this issue any more toDay, but... should we learn to think that the Living (who are blind and contested more strongly by evil) are in no position to "leave directions" to the Dead (who will eventually know and understand things) but they should be "leaving directions" to the Living?

I mean, yes, but that's what the Visitors are for, aren't they?

I think the main benefit of having as rigid as possible rules is that it means that even if we in the Living Thread sometimes get a false signal, it will help those in the Dead Thread work out what's going on.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I mean, yes, but that's what the Visitors are for, aren't they?

They are the Bonus - if we ever get that far.

Last time we never get the "returner" to go back in time. So I'd not count on them, but like I said, it would be a nice bonus if we got one.

I think the main benefit of having as rigid as possible rules is that it means that even if we in the Living Thread sometimes get a false signal, it will help those in the Dead Thread work out what's going on.

Here we seem to disagree. The Dead don't need our help, we need theirs. they may know, we definitively don't. So let us give them the initiative as they are the ones who most probably know where to look.

Okay, I promised to shut up with this issue toDay...

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

This sounds so awfully fishy that you must be aware that it does. What Lommy just said about the Cobbler-acting. I am not really sure what you are playing at here, but either you adopted some really awkward style or there is something else you are running here.

I mean this goes exactly into the book "a Wolf or EW would not act so boldly, except if they wanted us to think just that". Maybe a straight question, then - do you still want to be lynched or not?

Yes, sometimes I just want to find peace and quiet and let go the earthly burdens. Nothings changed over N2 and into D2 but (and you know nothing that comes before the "but" really matters), but that doesn't mean nothing will happen in the future to change my circumstances. And that doesn't mean I want to have to vote for myself again today. Lommy made a really good and logical argument behind her vote yesterday, and I was thinking ya know, I'd hate to be turned and used as a pawn in the contest of wizards and dwarf schemes. I much prefer to be my own master.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, sometimes I just want to find peace and quiet and let go the earthly burdens. Nothings changed over N2 and into D2 but (and you know nothing that comes before the "but" really matters), but that doesn't mean nothing will happen in the future to change my circumstances. And that doesn't mean I want to have to vote for myself again today. Lommy made a really good and logical argument behind her vote yesterday, and I was thinking ya know, I'd hate to be turned and used as a pawn in the contest of wizards and dwarf schemes. I much prefer to be my own master.

And while on this topic...

Personally I feel Inzil looks the worst/most sinister today. Where myself, I'm trying to make the best of being stuck in this pit of despair Kuru calls home, without also being reckless/careless, or if I am reckless/careless it only impacts my own luck in life.