Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Living Thread

[Nogrod]

What are you (Lommy & Legate) talking about the immediate DL? Isn't in 1 hour and 40 minutes from now, not 40 minutes from now?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

What are you (Lommy & Legate) talking about the immediate DL? Isn't in 1 hour and 40 minutes from now, not 40 minutes from now?

Maybe for you sir, who are going to go to sleep at 3 AM as usual I would like to vote soon.

(x-ed with everyone since the quoted post)

[Nerwen]

Hang on, where's this "Eonwe is different toDay = wolf" thing come from? *Is* he different?

[Mithalwen]

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?

I think that's what we're all worried about.

Edit: x'd since Mithalwen..

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?

Well I think the only way is if there are more wolves in the Dead thread than innocents. The only time I recall the "using the empower vote for dead to send info" really blowing up is when the Living had a set plan and then randomly somehow before the DL changed those plans which left the Dead confused on what to do.

I am intrigued though by Nog's different use of the empower vote as a way for the Dead to put in their collective "advisor" role for the living.

[Lalaith]

only time I recall the "using the empower vote for dead to send info" really blowing up is when the Living had a set plan and then randomly somehow before the DL changed those plans which left the Dead confused on what to do.

Yes I remember that too. Weirdly I can't remember in which thread I was at the time, dead or alive, but I do remember chaos.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Yes I remember that too. Weirdly I can't remember in which thread I was at the time, dead or alive, but I do remember chaos.

I was definitely in the living thread that time.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am. A bit creeped by Loslote agreeing with me but my likeliest vote is Inzil for the reasons I gave earlier. However I am not sure I like Eonwe being so bossy over the dead vote. Can anyone reassure me there is no way wolves could bend a preagreed system to their advantage should death stymy their usual communication?

To be honest, I'm not actually as dead-set on it as might appear from my posting. It's just that I seem to be the only one who is actually suggesting some kind of system. I'd hoped that by trying to fully detail it yesterDay, people might actually discuss it and work out what they think about it etc., but other than some vague agreement with the idea and Nogrod's very strong insistence that it's a bad idea, not many seem to have directly engaged with it. Oh well...

In any case, I just like the idea of having some kind of accepted system to fall back on. Obviously things might change over the course of the game, but I imagine Days will be (or at least on the surface appear to be until we actually know roles) relatively uneventful, and it will be good to have something to fall back on at least. And especially in these early Days when we know so little, it would be good to get some kind of steady stream of information (even if limited).


edit: x-ed since Pervinca. Also, that was meant to be 'some Days' (obviously some will be exciting!)

[Eönwë]

People who I'm relatively happy with
Eomer - Hasn't really posted that much, but seems reasonable and talks sense when he does talk.
Lalaith - Same as Eomer
Nogrod - I mean, I still disagree with him (though he does raise some good points), but I don't think he's said anything that makes me particularly suspicious.
Nerwen - For now, nothing seems too bad. I'm not completely sure how I feel about Zil, but I don't find her suspicion suspicious.

Not quite in the clear
Legate
Lommy

Red Flags
Lottie - I really just can't shake the feeling that she's up to something. Also, I obviously can't tell whether I seem different toDay from yesterDay, but I did feel like she kind of threw that out there with not much evidence (which apparently convinced Lommy).
Zil - I do think he overreacted a bit to Nerwen's accusation.
Boro - All the weirdness.

Not sure how I feel
Mithalwen - I'd like to hear more of her thoughts on people.

Need to post more
Sally
Pervinca
Brinn
Shasta


I don't think I have time to go into more detail, but I'd like to look more at Legate and Lommy tomorrow if I'm still alive (well I suppose actually also if I'm dead, but that'll be on the other thread).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Red Flags
Lottie - I really just can't shake the feeling that she's up to something. Also, I obviously can't tell whether I seem different toDay from yesterDay, but I did feel like she kind of threw that out there with not much evidence (which apparently convinced Lommy).

Was it Lottie who stated this discussion of you changing and thence being suspicious? I think no one has time to go and find it out now, but you Eönwe might remember it as it concerns you.

I mean that's one suspicion I couldn't find anything but fabricated or at least far-fetched and would like to know who came up with it and how.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Was it Lottie who stated this discussion of you changing and thence being suspicious? I think no one has time to go and find it out now, but you Eönwe might remember it as it concerns you.

I mean that's one suspicion I couldn't find anything but fabricated or at least far-fetched and would like to know who came up with it and how.

Yeah, it was in response to my EW-Lottie+Boro-wolf post.

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Was it Lottie who stated this discussion of you changing and thence being suspicious? I think no one has time to go and find it out now, but you Eönwe might remember it as it concerns you.

I mean that's one suspicion I couldn't find anything but fabricated or at least far-fetched and would like to know who came up with it and how.

Yeah, that was me, and I admitted that it was far-fetched, but it was what I saw and I wanted to go on the record as having seen it, if only because if I died before I could say it and he turned out to be evil I would definitely regret not having said something.

EDIT: xed since Nog

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Maybe for you sir, who are going to go to sleep at 3 AM as usual I would like to vote soon.

I was thinking about voting soonish as well and to go to bed...

Originally Posted by Pervinca

Can someone tell me the voting deadline in Greenwich Mean Time?

Exactly 1 hour and 7 minutes from the time stamp of this post.

[Nogrod]

One thing that still bothers me is Kuru's answer to my question - or the non-answer to it. Or to be more precise, whether it is something one should pay heed to or just shrug and walk away from.

So the question was, whether the EW could play so as to NOT turn someone on the Night1 before the game started, so that we'd play D1 without a single Wolf around, and then turn someone into a Wolf the next Night(2) and also using that Wolf the very same Night to Nightkill someone (aka. Morsul)?

Here's once more his answer (starting with an answer to another question), bolding mine.

Originally Posted by KuruLord

While "everything" is assumed to have happened during a NIGHT phase, this does also implicitly create an order in which things occur. For example, Ranger Pick effectively has to come first in order for the skill to be used at all, then Evil actions, and so on and so forth.

And I'm afraid that is as much of an answer as I can give to Nog's question too.

The answer to that question is baked into the geography of the game.

I know it may be frustrating and seem like I don't understand the question, but I could not possibly answer that particular question. It is part of the game. The most definitive statement I can make is that the game is still going on right now. The Party has not won. Everyone can make of that what they will.

~*~

Originally Posted by Pervinca

Do I have to give a reason for my vote?

It would be appreciated.

[Nogrod]

EDIT: Sorry, didn't make any intro here on what this is all about... Sorry. So this is on Kuru's (non)answer just a few more lines...



The "the Party has not won" made me think first that there was some major positive thing for the village going on - but then after some thought realized that there aren't that many plausible chances for that to be true.

But what looks like it is said there is, that it might have been possible that we had no Wolf on D1 - which would kind of negate all my work on the voting on D1.

Emphasizing the order in which things take place to make events happen looks quite like he is saying that like conjuring up a wolf happens first and then there is the act that the creatures do.

Or it could be read the other way - if these summonings come the last.

Or is he just toying with us and laughing to his dwarven beard whilst seeing us speculating over sich issues?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The "the Party has not won" made me think first that there was some major positive thing for the village going on - but then after some thought realized that there aren't that many plausible chances for that to be true.

But what looks like it is said there is, that it might have been possible that we had no Wolf on D1 - which would kind of negate all my work on the voting on D1.

Emphasizing the order in which things take place to make events happen looks quite like he is saying that like conjuring up a wolf happens first and then there is the act that the creatures do.

Or it could be read the other way - if these summonings come the last.

Or is he just toying with us and laughing to his dwarven beard whilst seeing us speculating over sich issues?

I think you're obsessing too much over this. It could mean anything.

Edit: x'd since Nog.

[Nogrod]

I don't see the argument that Eönwe has "changed" from D1.

But I do suspect him for a couple of reasons.

His actions late on D1 - he was strongly for no-lynch and was present at least ten minutes before the DL but stood back and just watched things roll the last ten minutes when most of the votes came like in reality he couldn't care less. Had he the best of the village in mind and a conviction that a no lynch is the best option he would have said something - or tried to use hiss own vote reach a draw, or anything? It looks fake then.

He has quite consistently tried to look helpful ironing out a rigid plan to negate the possibility of the Dead Thread's influence on the game - well okay, that was opiniated - but the fact that he has been busy to look very helpful while not committing to any suspicions or real help (finding the baddies and as such creating people who might feel bad about you and might vote for you) looks a bit suspicious.

[Brinniel]

I am still pondering about the Dead Thread as I have no familiarity with it from previous games (at least that I can recall). I do agree this is a discussion that should be saved for toMorrow as there is less than thirty minutes before deadline. It does make me wonder if a baddie would attempt to focus on discussing the Dead Thread toDay as a way to distract the village.

If a wolf was turned last Night, I agree that Eonwe would've been a good pick. Boro might've been another pick if the baddies thought his attempt to self-sacrifice made him look innocent. But I don't think these are valid reasons alone to vote for someone and neither look suspicious enough to me right now to vote for one.

The escalation between Nerwen and Inzil is interesting. Maybe it is just an innocent-on-innocent spat, but I find it concerning. More seem to find Inzil's reaction worrisome, but I'm more worried about Nerwen. I didn't really see his comment as a slip-up and she seems to be pulling this idea out of hat and letting the rest of the village run with it.

As for yesterDay's votes, I think it's likely that a baddie is hiding among the no-lynch advocates. Lottie is one that still stands out to me from that and there are others to look at too, though I haven't had the time to do so.

EDIT: X-ed with Nogrod

[Lalaith]

It's annoying, I know that my five main suspects can't possibly all be guilty, but I'm now too tired to go through all the permutations and patterns of who fits in with whom.

Nerwen/Eomer felt like a good fit to me earlier toDay - although that could just be because they were both around and chatting, Boro/Lottie has been mentioned by others and kind of makes sense - and Zil - well, I don't know. I would go with Nerwen again for the sake of consistency but she feels less guilty to me now - I quite like her defence of Eonwe, just now. I think I might go with Eomer instead.
I do suspect Boro quite strongly but I'm not going to vote for him because I suspect him of playing a bit of a scam which I will explain tomorrow if it's still relevant.

[Lalaith]

Ok then.
++Eomer

[satansaloser2005]

Not again, you guys....

[Kuruharan]

The deadline has come.

Please stop posting.

Narration will follow shortly.

EDIT: For mandatory vote purposes I will count Pervinca Took's vote since it won't lend itself to a controversial outcome.

But please do put the ++ in front of the votes.

EDIT EDIT: Also in tomorrow's introduction narration I will include a list of the people who are in danger of mandatory vote expulsion so they can make sure and vote.

[Nerwen]

Just reading through previous Days and thought I'd comment on this-

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One thing that still bothers me is Kuru's answer to my question - or the non-answer to it. Or to be more precise, whether it is something one should pay heed to or just shrug and walk away from.

So the question was, whether the EW could play so as to NOT turn someone on the Night1 before the game started, so that we'd play D1 without a single Wolf around, and then turn someone into a Wolf the next Night(2) and also using that Wolf the very same Night to Nightkill someone (aka. Morsul)?

Here's once more his answer (starting with an answer to another question), bolding mine.

The enigmatic nature of this is troubling. However-

This would not be possible. The Evil Wizard couldn't create and then kill that wolf in the same NIGHT. If the Evil Wizard tried something like this the victim would go to the Dead Thread as an Ordo.

That wouldn't preclude killing that wolf on a subsequent NIGHT, but it wouldn't work to do it on the same NIGHT.

This, although Kuru misinterpreted what you were asking, seems to make it pretty clear that the new wolf doesn't assume the role until the Night is over. Which makes sense, given that-

Originally Posted by The Rules

The Ranger can protect players from being killed or turned during the NIGHT phase.

and

If the Good Wizard and Evil Wizard target the same person, nothing happens.

You see there is more than one way a conversion can fail, depending on what else happens during the Night, so I don't think it would make sense for the EW to be able to say, "Aha, I have just created my first minion- let the slaughter commence! Mwa-ha-ha!" The exception, perhaps, might be in the case that the EW took a complete shot in the dark and requested that Morsul be killed IF [Prospective Wolf #1] were to be turned successfully. Maybe the rules allow that and that's why Kuru wouldn't confirm that it 100% couldn't happen. But it seems far-fetched.
Edit:x'd with 2 Brinns.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Ok, here we go:

Nerwen - aside from the incident with Zil, there wasn't anything that would make me suspect her in any way. Therefore I am probably not going to vote her toDay.
Inziladun - okay, now upon re-reading, his reaction to Nerwen escalated in such a rapid way that it really makes my alarm bells ring. However, all his posting earlier was pretty normal, so I would prefer not to vote him solely on the basis of that one instance.
Loslote - now she has been bringing a lot of stuff to the front, and like I said, seems generally much more vocal than I am used to her being. I am really not into believing that she and Boro would have been two baddies from the start, although we have seen bolder packs. Objectively however, even though she's being vocal and bringing people up as possible suspects and all that, her behavior did not strike me as sinister by itself. I think there isn't enough to make me vote her now, either.
Boromir88 - okay, let's be frank. If there's anyone behaving outright suspiciously, it's him; and that is exactly the problem, because why. His responses regarding yesterDay were satisfactory to me by themselves, but that does not change his behavior as it is. He is probably the one I might consider the most worthy of my vote, just because I have no idea what to do with him and I don't want to give him a pass "because he's so strange that he possibly can't be guilty".
Shastanis Althreduin - is not around? I mean, appeared, but there have been no posts from him now, so... obviously leaving him be for now, although I certainly hope we won't have too many submarines here.
satansaloser2005 - hasn't yet posted enough for me to form an opinion, therefore probably not voting her now.
Eomer of the Rohirrim - he has been poking around. YesterDay, I got generally positive vibe from him, today, he was maybe throwing some suspicion, but also said things I can again agree with and which seem reasonable (like his attitude towards Boro). Not voting him, in any case.
Thinlómien - she has been very active now, and I can agree with many points she brings up. Most of all, I am not getting any feeling of false tones from her posts, which at the moment is probably the main thing I am operating on in regards to her. Therefore no reason to vote her toDay.
Lalaith - is really hard to read for me, I think I need to see more from her. So far, nothing that would make me vote for her, however.
Mithalwen - so far I am not getting any bad vibes from her. She participates in the discussion, I did not see anything that would look especially wolf-y. In any case nothing that would make me think she deserves a vote.
Eönwë - whereas I acknowledge the theory that he would have been a convenient Wolf pick last Night, I also acknowledge that it would have been perhaps too obvious (then again, nobody really thought about it until now), and upon re-read, I don't think his behavior is really different in some significant manner. I am probably not voting him toDay.
Nogrod - good to see him around, though most of his posting was about the Dead thread. I am certainly not voting him toDay, hopefully toMorrow there will also be more things to read from him.
Pervinca Took - probably absent?
Brinniel - also hasn't been around that much, although has posted earlier. Not enough to go with, however.

But that's about it. Will check who I x-posted with (probably a lot) and then finally vote and go to sleep.

EDIT: x-ed since my last post

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Hang on, where's this "Eonwe is different toDay = wolf" thing come from? *Is* he different?

Well exactly, upon re-read I think he is not in any significant way.

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Do I have to give a reason for my vote?

It would be better because then there is something where we can see why you voted the way you did. Anyway, welcome!

EDIT: x-ed since my last

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I wanted to have voted like twenty minutes ago, but I'm really not going to stick around until DL.

I will vote

++Boro

It would really anger me if I ignored him just because he was so standing out and then it turned out he was a baddie anyway.

Good Night, people.

EDIT: x-ed with Lalaith

[Eönwë]

I'm actually quite tempted to vote Boro, because if he's actually evil then, well, at least we've killed a wolf, and if not, and he has plans for the Dead Thread etc., then he'd probably be an asset to have there.

Zil and Lottie scare me a bit more though at the moment, but maybe that's just because I always worry that they're plotting something evil.

[Nogrod]

With half an hour to go, we are here: five votes to five different people.

Easy case for even just two baddies to control it.


Lommy -> Eönwe
Eomer -> Lottie
Lalaith -> Eomer
Legate -> Boro
Mith -> Inzil

I have my suspicions on Boro and Lottie as well (not exactly as a pack but one of them could be an evil person), but I might be most tempted to vote Eönwe.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

With half an hour to go, we are here: five votes to five different people.

Easy case for even just two baddies to control it.


Lommy -> Eönwe
Eomer -> Lottie
Lalaith -> Eomer
Legate -> Boro
Mith -> Inzil

I have my suspicions on Boro and Lottie as well (not exactly as a pack but one of them could be an evil person), but I might be most tempted to vote Eönwe.

Even more fun- six votes for six people. The first was Zil's for me.

[Loslote]

I'm back and caught up. I'm probably going to vote either Zil or Eönwë, but since I suspect the both of them, I'm going to wait and try to avoid risking a tie.

EDIT: xed with Nerwen

[Nogrod]

Sorry Nerwen - I missed that one.


Okay.

If no one else moves, then I'll do my part to avoid the last minute frenzied (non)decisions - aka. panic-reactions.


++ Eönwe


The new tally:

Inzil -> Nerwen
Lommy -> Eönwe
Eomer -> Lottie
Lalaith -> Eomer
Legate -> Boro
Mith -> Inzil
Nogrod -> Eönwe 2