Werewolf CXII - Dueling Wizards III - The Living Thread

[Eönwë]

Well, it looks like I won't have to look at Lommy's posting toDay after all...

A few thoughts:
1. The Zil vote seems a bit worryingly sudden.
2. However, I also think the early spreading out of the vote needs to be looked at more closely.
3. Let's have the Dead Thread discussion now, please.
4. On the topic of the Dead Thread, over the course of the Night, my suspicion of Nogroddue to his dismissal of the Dead Thread plan has returned. Not specifically his disagreement, but rather his attempt to discredit and derail it without offering any proper alternative (sure, it may be the case that the Dead should be the ones telling the Living what to do, but the Living are still the ones with the power of lynching, and they still need to be communicated with). For example, last Night, instead of either voting for himself (and being revealed) or not (thereby being found out), a B]Boro[/B]-wolf could now potentially try to justify not cooperating (in this case, cooperating being voting for himself for the Night reveal). I find it hard to believe that this possibility would not have occurred to Nog, which makes me suspect him.

Ok, it's very late and I'm very tired, so going to sleep now. I hope to wake up to some good discussion, village!

[Nerwen]

Well, Steve, here's your plan from yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Just to clarify how the empowering thing would work (since there's been some discussion):

1. Let's assume we start with today's living as the options. First of all, we alphabetise the list (toDay is an even Day so it's in Z->A order). That gives us:

Thinlómien
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Pervencia Took
Nogrod
Nerwen
Mithalwen
Loslote
Legate of Amon Lanc
Lalaith
Inziladun
Eönwë
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Brinniel
Boromir88

2. Now, if someone is selected from the first half of the names (which includes the person exactly in the middle), then the person is PREY (to use Kuru's terms), i.e., good, and if they are in the second half, they are a PREDATOR (also Kuru's term), i.e., evil. This gives us:

If the person is PREY:
Thinlómien
Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Pervencia Took
Nogrod
Nerwen
Mithalwen
Loslote

If the person is a PREDATOR:
Legate of Amon Lanc
Lalaith
Inziladun
Eönwë
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Brinniel
Boromir88


3. Then, based on whether the Target (i.e. the person whose role was found out the Night before) is innocent or guilty, someone who is a known innocent (i.e. someone genuinely found out to be an innocent, or if no such person appears, a Night kill, e.g. Morsul - I assume the Dead Thread can come up with a system, but my suggestion would be to cycle through those lynched and definitively proven to be innocent) picks which of the people in the appropriate PREDATOR or PREY list is voted.

Of course, if we want to be particularly careful about the list (and possibly EW attempts at manipulation), we could, for example, after Day 4 (since this will only start on Day 3), decide to use a different ordering, e.g. Kuru's narration order (forwards one day, backwards the next), and so on.

edit: x-ed since my last.

As I said, I think we should stipulate that the Dead should check lynchees only (except in the case of a Hunter kill). The idea being floated about yesterDay that the wolves might kill one of their own just to have a wolf in the Dead Thread... well, it could happen as a sort of extreme outlier, but I feel that planning around such a possibility means that half the information we get from the Dead will be effectively useless. What do other people think?

[satansaloser2005]

Quoting is being problematic from my phone, but I agree with your above post, Nerwen. The idea of the villain(s) doing that is hard to swallow. Even Phantom wouldn't consider such a gambit.

Hang on. Phantom's not secretly playing, is he?!

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Quoting is being problematic from my phone, but I agree with your above post, Nerwen. The idea of the villain(s) doing that is hard to swallow. Even Phantom wouldn't consider such a gambit.

Hang on. Phantom's not secretly playing, is he?!

Actually you are talking to someone who literally did try such a gambit once, in another game with special rules- but we were in desperate straits, and the sacrificial wolf was pretty much on the block anyway. I don't see that applying here, at least not yet.

[satansaloser2005]

Precisely.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Y'all, I am very sorry for missing yesterday. I've been horrendously sick.

Will catch up and post stuff soon, promise.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Y'all, I am very sorry for missing yesterday. I've been horrendously sick.

Will catch up and post stuff soon, promise.

My jewel!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

So I've caught up as far as reading the thread. I'll need to really try and dig in tomorrow, but without further ado, my three suspects are -

Zil, Lommy, and Sally.

Huh. Well that won't do.

Back to the drawing board, I suppose - although I do feel like Sally is sorta evil, I still need to go back and figure out why I thought that.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

So all of the chatter about Dun bothers me more than Dun's own words. My intention at this point is to take a stab at someone in that conversation, though at this point, that's sort of everyone.

In less vague news, my gut reaction is to not trust Lottie.

As one more point, why are we talking about the EW potentially killing his or her own wolf? I fail to see how the wizard could benefit from this in any way. There is a wolf, and the wolf killed Morsul.

I think it was this post, because I was leaning evil on Inzil. I was thinking Lommy and he were linked together, though, so for her to be dead last night is strange to me, so now I don't know. Sally's post about "all y'all are in trouble" also dinged me a bit, though. I'm not sold, but I'm still leaning evil. (Sorry, dear.)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

My jewel!

I'll try not to get you sick as well, moon of my life.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Folks who instigated that temporary five (six?) way tie are in a lot of trouble....

Behold my unamused face. o_O

At least they voted, showed their colours and left an audit trail. But there is a point in this game when what you don't do takes on as least as much significance as what you do. Can't help thinking the range would be more an issue for a servant of evil than someone with genuine (though possibly misplaced) suspicion.

[Brinniel]

On the Dead Thread...

Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this?

Eonwe, now that I'm starting to wrap my head around your strategy, while I do like where you're going with it, I see flaws. For one thing, last Night there were two in the Dead Thread which means they could vote to reveal a role. How do we know for sure that they cooperated and allowed this to happen? And if they did, how do we know if the role revealed was Morsul or Inzil? The theory of the EW killing their own wolf seems out there, yet the mere fact that it was discussed yesterDay may have prompted last Night's vote to go towards Morsul.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Then, based on whether the Target (i.e. the person whose role was found out the Night before) is innocent or guilty, someone who is a known innocent (i.e. someone genuinely found out to be an innocent, or if no such person appears, a Night kill, e.g. Morsul - I assume the Dead Thread can come up with a system, but my suggestion would be to cycle through those lynched and definitively proven to be innocent) picks which of the people in the appropriate PREDATOR or PREY list is voted.

The list you are using is an interesting idea as a way for the dead to communicate to the living while still having some flexibility in their votes, but this here takes away that flexibility. You are assuming just because a known innocent can be trusted, that they will make good decisions. The truth is a known innocent can still be very misguided. For that reason, I do not like the idea of having one person decide the empowerment vote.

A strategy is needed, I agree. My main concern is that in our attempt to create a communication system with the dead, we will end up causing miscommunication and even more confusion. After all, while we can direct the Dead Thread and hope for the best, there's really no way to tell for sure if they are actually following the directions at any given time.

[Brinniel]

Unlike Sally, I'm not quite as concerned about the early voters who spread their votes out. While it's no good to spread the votes out too thin, they all voted early enough for others to step in and prevent another tie.

The last few bandwagon votes for Inzil are more concerning and may require a further look.

But I will leave that for another time as it is late and I need sleep.

[Nerwen]

Just reading through previous Days and thought I'd comment on this-

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One thing that still bothers me is Kuru's answer to my question - or the non-answer to it. Or to be more precise, whether it is something one should pay heed to or just shrug and walk away from.

So the question was, whether the EW could play so as to NOT turn someone on the Night1 before the game started, so that we'd play D1 without a single Wolf around, and then turn someone into a Wolf the next Night(2) and also using that Wolf the very same Night to Nightkill someone (aka. Morsul)?

Here's once more his answer (starting with an answer to another question), bolding mine.

The enigmatic nature of this is troubling. However-

This would not be possible. The Evil Wizard couldn't create and then kill that wolf in the same NIGHT. If the Evil Wizard tried something like this the victim would go to the Dead Thread as an Ordo.

That wouldn't preclude killing that wolf on a subsequent NIGHT, but it wouldn't work to do it on the same NIGHT.

This, although Kuru misinterpreted what you were asking, seems to make it pretty clear that the new wolf doesn't assume the role until the Night is over. Which makes sense, given that-

Originally Posted by The Rules

The Ranger can protect players from being killed or turned during the NIGHT phase.

and

If the Good Wizard and Evil Wizard target the same person, nothing happens.

You see there is more than one way a conversion can fail, depending on what else happens during the Night, so I don't think it would make sense for the EW to be able to say, "Aha, I have just created my first minion- let the slaughter commence! Mwa-ha-ha!" The exception, perhaps, might be in the case that the EW took a complete shot in the dark and requested that Morsul be killed IF [Prospective Wolf #1] were to be turned successfully. Maybe the rules allow that and that's why Kuru wouldn't confirm that it 100% couldn't happen. But it seems far-fetched.
Edit:x'd with 2 Brinns.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

As I said, I think we should stipulate that the Dead should check lynchees only (except in the case of a Hunter kill). The idea being floated about yesterDay that the wolves might kill one of their own just to have a wolf in the Dead Thread... well, it could happen as a sort of extreme outlier, but I feel that planning around such a possibility means that half the information we get from the Dead will be effectively useless. What do other people think?

Hey could you tell me where you mentioned this before? I know I was pushing for it quite heavily, but I don't remember getting any support on the issue:

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Also, just to clarify the other part, the idea was that the Target would be the non-Night-killed-person in the Dead Thread who has been there the longest and has not had their role revealed should be picked.

I say non-Night-killed because while it's an interesting idea, it seems pretty crazy to imagine the EW Night-killing one of their own, and even if they did, it seems even more unlikely that it could happen more than once (once they're down to non-replenishable wolves), and one wouldn't screw up the system enough to make much a difference.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Yes, but for my second post what I was getting at was that for toNight, both people should vote for toDay's lynchee (so we don't have a wasted Night on that thread).

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Hey could you tell me where you mentioned this before? I know I was pushing for it quite heavily, but I don't remember getting any support on the issue:

Well, I said it in the previous post... but
I actually thought I'd mentioned yesterDay too, only I can't find any such post.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

My main concern is that in our attempt to create a communication system with the dead, we will end up causing miscommunication and even more confusion. After all, while we can direct the Dead Thread and hope for the best, there's really no way to tell for sure if they are actually following the directions at any given time.

Word.

We can never be quite sure if we interpret the dead-empowerment the right way - and the whole point of any kind of major plan is to gain REAL knowledge, not just "it might mean x" (which is the accuracy of our own deductions here). But a rigid system comes with the expense of the Dead-thread becoming an automaton - while still not helping us in any reasonable way.

So the costs far outweight the benefits.

That said, after thinking about it a little I'm actually softening my critique of the plan - or admitting my own guidelines (which I suggested yesterDay) not being as good as I thought them to be.

The problem I didn't quite realize yesterDay is, that the Dead have less to go on with in this kind of a special game because like us on D1 and 2 they'll also struggle with the fact that there aren't that many special roles yet aka. there's less to "read" or to make inferences from.

But even with the Dead being a little less powerful I kind of thought them to be yesterDay, I'd still say it is too little gain from trying to tie the hands of the Dead-thread (and even ours) - and unwise from us the Living as it would create chances for the evil side to hide their voting in their possibly totally reasonable arguments on an interpretation of the empowerment vote that benefits their cause.

Originally Posted by Eönwe

For example, last Night, instead of either voting for himself (and being revealed) or not (thereby being found out), a B]Boro[/B]-wolf could now potentially try to justify not cooperating (in this case, cooperating being voting for himself for the Night reveal). I find it hard to believe that this possibility would not have occurred to Nog

Sorry, but I have no clue whatsoever you are talking about here. So that (probably) hasn't occurred to me at all - or at least I don't understand what you are talking about.

I mean Boro is alive and thus does not vote anything on Nights - nobody votes on Nights, right? If you mean that Boro-wolf would have made a suicide on D1 and then decided not to co-operate in the Dead-thread then what's the problem - he'd be overpowered in no time and his actions would actually target him there etc.

Originally Posted by Eönwe

his attempt to discredit and derail it without offering any proper alternative

Wrong. I did offer an alternative. Actually a viable and most reasonable one.

Let the Dead play as hard as they can and battle it out there with their extra knowledge and try to win this game for us by affecting the lynches and trying to signal us whom they think is the most suspicious person by empowering a vote to someone they think should be lynched.

Ok. I'm in a hurry right now, but I'll be back later...

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this?

I really hope so.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Eonwe, now that I'm starting to wrap my head around your strategy, while I do like where you're going with it, I see flaws. For one thing, last Night there were two in the Dead Thread which means they could vote to reveal a role. How do we know for sure that they cooperated and allowed this to happen? And if they did, how do we know if the role revealed was Morsul or Inzil? The theory of the EW killing their own wolf seems out there, yet the mere fact that it was discussed yesterDay may have prompted last Night's vote to go towards Morsul.

Well, that's why I was pushing so hard yesterDay for the village to agree to the plan (see the posts I quoted in my last post). If we'd all agreed on the Dead Thread voting for Inziladun, then him not self-voting would out him as a wolf anyway. That's why I was getting a bit frustrated yesterDay at people either ignoring the discussion, flat-out rejecting the idea, or saying we should wait until toDay to discuss it. And I suspect that while some of that was for practical/legitimate/non-evil reasons, there is at least one evil person hiding in that category.

For now, we can only hope that the two did adhere to the plan. If not, then I imagine if Nog is a wolf/EW, he's feeling very proud of himself right around now.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

The list you are using is an interesting idea as a way for the dead to communicate to the living while still having some flexibility in their votes, but this here takes away that flexibility. You are assuming just because a known innocent can be trusted, that they will make good decisions. The truth is a known innocent can still be very misguided. For that reason, I do not like the idea of having one person decide the empowerment vote.

You're right, that's a good point. Maybe they could have their own pseudo-vote (known wolves excluded obviously) and then assign a known innocent to be a tie-breaker, and then all vote for whoever won that? Something like that anyway.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

A strategy is needed, I agree. My main concern is that in our attempt to create a communication system with the dead, we will end up causing miscommunication and even more confusion. After all, while we can direct the Dead Thread and hope for the best, there's really no way to tell for sure if they are actually following the directions at any given time.

Two things I do agree withNogrod about are:
1. We should take anything from the Dead Thread with a pinch of salt. Ultimately, we have no idea what's going on there, even if we can hope that they're trying to help us.
2. Later on, the needs of the game might change, and we shouldn't force ourselves (or the Dead Thread) to stick to a rigid plan every Day/Night.

But that doesn't mean we shouldn't at least try early on.


Also, one final thing to clear up: In my first post toDay, I said Boro-wolf. Of course I meant a Zil-wolf. I was very tired when I posted that...

I'll be back later.


edit: x-posted with Brinn and Nogrod

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, first things first. I think we should make sure to figure out the communication with Dead Thread ASAP now, otherwise they won't have even remote chance to communicating anything. As soon as we can get that off the table, we can focus more on Lommy's death and on the lynch yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

As I said, I think we should stipulate that the Dead should check lynchees only (except in the case of a Hunter kill). The idea being floated about yesterDay that the wolves might kill one of their own just to have a wolf in the Dead Thread... well, it could happen as a sort of extreme outlier, but I feel that planning around such a possibility means that half the information we get from the Dead will be effectively useless. What do other people think?

I don't think it is very likely either. The only thing that might be a problem, and that is actually an important point, what Brinn said:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Eonwe, now that I'm starting to wrap my head around your strategy, while I do like where you're going with it, I see flaws. For one thing, last Night there were two in the Dead Thread which means they could vote to reveal a role. How do we know for sure that they cooperated and allowed this to happen? And if they did, how do we know if the role revealed was Morsul or Inzil? The theory of the EW killing their own wolf seems out there, yet the mere fact that it was discussed yesterDay may have prompted last Night's vote to go towards Morsul.

That's a valid note. If we go with the option of a list for communicating, I think it should be enough if the list has some built-in failsafes, including a "none of the above" option.

In any case, the "two-answer list" such as the one that has been quoted from yesterDay wouldn't do, in my opinion. On top of everything, if potential Wolves on the Dead Thread managed to mess up with the vote, we would end up with completely the opposite information really easily (even though that's always a risk).

In any case, if I am thinking of a list, I say we should at least modify it to say, for instance, "none of the above". Ideally, split it into more parts, which should not be that big of a deal now (it would become more difficult once the Dead thread starts to fill up, but at least for toDay, I think that should work. We can always modify the lists later). In other words, we should bear in mind the possibilities of the Dead thread working differently than we want them to, take into account possible "civic disobedience" of the Dead thread and what have you.

So if, using Eönwë's list modified for toDay, it was:

Shastanis Althreduin
satansaloser2005
Pervinca Took
Nogrod
Nerwen
Mithalwen
Loslote
Legate of Amon Lanc
Lalaith
Eönwë
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Brinniel
Boromir88

Then, if we wanted to be super-sure and wanted to take into account the possibility that they somehow revealed Morsul instead of Inzil, we could make it something like first three - Inzil is Prey, 4.-6. - Inzil is Predator, 7.-8. - Morsul is Prey, 9.-10. - Morsul is Predator, 11.-13. none of the above. (These remaining numbers could be somehow modified still if we think of some more specific "none of the above".) Btw the number now is such that it is harder to divide, but I thought since the Morsul option is really there rather "just to be sure", I gave it only range of two people and range of three to Inzil. (We could also cut from the last option, but this is as even as possible and in any case no option should have just one person there.)

It's a draft, but I think it could work like that. At least for toDay. Again, our main goal should be to avoid chaos among the Dead.

I will leave this here to look at, and meanwhile I will try to look at what can be learned from Lommy's death, and hopefully also the voting yesterDay.

EDIT: x-ed with Nerwen, Nogrod and Eönwë

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Wrong. I did offer an alternative. Actually a viable and most reasonable one.

Let the Dead play as hard as they can and battle it out there with their extra knowledge and try to win this game for us by affecting the lynches and trying to signal us whom they think is the most suspicious person by empowering a vote to someone they think should be lynched.

Okay, so in other words, keep the dead "as if they were still alive" by "extending their right to vote", so to say? That, however, offers as much room for failure - especially since they have to boil all their votes down into one. As in, it is just enough if Dead 1 wants to empowere person X because the person they are voting for is clearly a Wolf, Dead 2 thinks the same about person Y, Dead 3 thinks the same about person Z and you have a tie, or somesuch. (Or Dead 1 is voting person X, Dead 2 is voting person Y, and meanwhile Dead 3, who is a Wolf, waits and then empowers person Y who is their packmate.)

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sorry, but I have no clue whatsoever you are talking about here. So that (probably) hasn't occurred to me at all - or at least I don't understand what you are talking about.

I mean Boro is alive and thus does not vote anything on Nights - nobody votes on Nights, right? If you mean that Boro-wolf would have made a suicide on D1 and then decided not to co-operate in the Dead-thread then what's the problem - he'd be overpowered in no time and his actions would actually target him there etc.

Sorry, as I said in my last post, I meant Zil there. I think after talking about all the havoc a potential D1-lynch-Boro-wolf could wreak in the Dead Thread, I just kind of had it in my head that way. What I meant was this:

• If we'd clearly agreed to the plan to vote for the non-lynchee who's been in the Dead Thread the longest (at least in these early Days when no-one knows anything and in lieu of any clear alternative), then the dead are duty-bound to find out Zil's role. In this case, he's a wolf and cooperates, he's a confirmed wolf; if he doesn't cooperate, then clearly he doesn't have the best interests of the village at heart and should be presumed to be a wolf. If he's innocent then he cooperates and is confirmed innocent.
• By introducing doubt, now a wolfziladun has an excuse for not cooperating of the 'Oh, but we never actually agreed to vote for me' variety, which gives non-cooperation something to hide behind.
• So we have two options for how toDay looks in the Dead Thread:
  1. The plan has been carried out: We have one known role (Zil), and two presumed innocents. Of course, one wolf could be hiding in the Night kills, but it's super-unlikely that the EW would sacrifice two. I don't want to say too much about possibilities and possible deductions etc., but this should give the Dead Thread at least a reasonable chance of knowing what's going on, even if they can't completely communicate with us. As I've said earlier, the plan was not meant to be 100% permanent, but mostly a good solid starting point.
  2. Plan hasn't been carried out: They either have no knowledge at all, or they know have one known (Morsul), one presumed innocent (Lommy) and one true unknown (Zil)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Wrong. I did offer an alternative. Actually a viable and most reasonable one.

Let the Dead play as hard as they can and battle it out there with their extra knowledge and try to win this game for us by affecting the lynches and trying to signal us whom they think is the most suspicious person by empowering a vote to someone they think should be lynched.

Sounds good, doesn't work (if we're going to go for such rhetoric at this point).

But seriously, the problem is that while this sounds reasonable, and is probably what we should do later on in the game, what does it actually mean for the early Days? If we have a fixed plan (and especially for the Night-voting), it means that either innocents cooperate to prove their innocence, or wolves either cooperate or are forced to out themselves by not cooperating, as discussed with Zil above.

That is a practical (and practicable) plan, while saying 'let them do the best they can by telling us who they think is guilty' has two problems. First of all, it means we in the Living Thread are a lot less likely to get the hard facts (or at least what is being transmitted about the hard facts) about who was innocent or guilty, which at this point is pretty much the only useful information we can get. Secondly, it muddies the waters, and gives the baddies more things to hide behind (and options to create draws in the voting).

Yes, later on, it might be good, but now such a plan is not really a plan, and to say otherwise seems a bit disingenuous.


edit: x-ed since my last post.

[Eönwë]

Oh, and surely empowering the most suspicious person could cause problems?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Oh, and surely empowering the most suspicious person could cause problems?

I think he must mean empowering a vote *for* the most suspicious person.

[Eönwë]

Well, technically, Legate, given that toDay is an odd Day, it should be an A-Z list .

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Then, if we wanted to be super-sure and wanted to take into account the possibility that they somehow revealed Morsul instead of Inzil, we could make it something like first three - Inzil is Prey, 4.-6. - Inzil is Predator, 7.-8. - Morsul is Prey, 9.-10. - Morsul is Predator, 11.-13. none of the above. (These remaining numbers could be somehow modified still if we think of some more specific "none of the above".) Btw the number now is such that it is harder to divide, but I thought since the Morsul option is really there rather "just to be sure", I gave it only range of two people and range of three to Inzil. (We could also cut from the last option, but this is as even as possible and in any case no option should have just one person there.)

I reckon that toDay, while not idea, we will probably need to go for something like this. This doesn't give many options for each possibility, but we're early on enough in the game that hopefully giving the extra vote to a wolf/EW shouldn't matter too much.

In which case, we could have something like:

Voted Zil, Zil was PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim

Voted Zil, Zil was PREDATOR
Eönwë
Lalaith

Voted Morsul, Morsul was PREY
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote

Voted Morsul, Morsul was PREDATOR
Mithalwen
Nerwen

Tie, each voted the other
Nogrod
Pervinca Took

Tie, each voted themself
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I think he must mean empowering a vote *for* the most suspicious person.

Oh, that makes a lot more sense. Sorry Nog.

[Eönwë]

Though that does come with the problems that:

1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline.
2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

Ok, actually going now. Will be back later in the Day.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Though that does come with the problems that:

1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline.
2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

Ok, actually going now. Will be back later in the Day.

Also, let's try to not spread the votes out so much this time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

That was the main thing in the last Dead thread! That's why it should be clear asap, and not changed. In the previous game, some of us had to vote waaay before DL, while the Living were merrily chatting about weather, and then somebody remembered they should give us a list, so they gave us one, so we were "finally, a list! Now we can vote!" And right after we voted, the Living said "hey, wait a second, we came up even with a better list! How about instead we do it like this!" And then our votes which had been already cast suddenly meant something completely different than they did before. So that's why it is really important we sort this out.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything? You could sum them up under the same thing, at least. "There was a tie". And leave the last part for "none of the above". I mean, I can't imagine what the "none of the above" would be, but. (Well maybe it could be "We are not going to run according to your schemes and we're going to do our own stuff like Nog suggests?" That would also solve that debate.)

Anyway I am actually going to use the nice weather here IRL and take tortoises out for a pasture (yes, you heard right), but I should be back in not such a long time. Try to figure out something with the Dead debate.

[Lalaith]

That said, I think it is better to include the "none of the above/something else" option rather than the "they voted each other/they voted themselves" option, because does that really tell us anything?

I agree. I don't want to chop us all up into little portions of two villagers the way Eonwe is now suggesting, it could in theory force the Dead to choose between empowering the wicked and the stupid.
I'm ok with a list and I think that the Dead (at least the innocents) would try to vote for Zil.
So I think we should be sectioned into three ways, Zil bad, Zil good, none of the above.That way the Dead have plenty of choice.

[Lalaith]

I'm going out and will be back later with lots of thoughts...but I thought I'd get my views on the Dead out there asap as I agree we need early agreement.
Also I have two questions, which may be for Kuru alone to answer as I can't find it in the Rules.
That is because the ideas that I have are based on two assumptions - one is that the Wizards cannot continue making roles once they are in the Dead Thread. The other is that a win for wolves and EW is the same as it is in an ordinary game, ie live wolves have to outnumber live villagers.
Are both my assumptions correct?

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

I agree. I don't want to chop us all up into little portions of two villagers the way Eonwe is now suggesting, it could in theory force the Dead to choose between empowering the wicked and the stupid.
I'm ok with a list and I think that the Dead (at least the innocents) would try to vote for Zil.
So I think we should be sectioned into three ways, Zil bad, Zil good, none of the above.That way the Dead have plenty of choice.

I think that might be better. After all, in the very unlikely event that Morsul was a wolf, I'm not sure knowing it would help us all that much, since he had no real connection to anyone.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Based on the rules, I'm assuming we will find out who received the empowerment vote at the end of each Day regardless of whether that empowerment vote actually has an impact on the lynch. Am I correct on this?

Yes, empowerment is cheesily obvious regardless on if it has any sort of impact on the outcome.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

That is because the ideas that I have are based on two assumptions - one is that the Wizards cannot continue making roles once they are in the Dead Thread.

Correct. Their role creating abilities cease when they enter the Dead Thread.

The other is that a win for wolves and EW is the same as it is in an ordinary game, ie live wolves have to outnumber live villagers.
Are both my assumptions correct?

Equal to or outnumber.

[Nerwen]

Talking of Morsul- if you want proof that the Dead are reading this thread pretty closely, check out his signature. It used to be "R.I.P. Morsul 07-12-2017. Cause of Death: Werewolf". Now it's "Is not Gollum, thank you very much", which is an obvious reference to this post of mine from yesterDay:

Since it is strictly against the rules for us to cite post counts from the Dead Thread, I will definitely not mention the fact that it has seventeen posts as of now in support of any theory that poor Morsul is just babbling away to himself in there à la Gollum.

Hit home, did it, Morsul?

[Boromir88]

Agree with only 3 groups, Zil was innocent, Zil was wolf, none of the above.

And moving forward agree with Nerwen that we should only ask the dead to check the lynchees (unless in the event of a hunter kill).

Knowing the lynchees alignment is in my opinion going to be more beneficial...and considering the delay of information the wolves might be bolder/aggressive in pursuing lynches than they would in a normal game where roles get revealed immediately.

Today is the one day the DL is going to suck for me. I may be able to return and vote, may not. Cheers.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Agree with only 3 groups, Zil was innocent, Zil was wolf, none of the above.

And moving forward agree with Nerwen that we should only ask the dead to check the lynchees (unless in the event of a hunter kill).

And hopefully we can have a visitor clear up any of the "none of the above" options we're left with in the future.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Well, that's why I was pushing so hard yesterDay for the village to agree to the plan (see the posts I quoted in my last post). If we'd all agreed on the Dead Thread voting for Inziladun, then him not self-voting would out him as a wolf anyway. That's why I was getting a bit frustrated yesterDay at people either ignoring the discussion, flat-out rejecting the idea, or saying we should wait until toDay to discuss it. And I suspect that while some of that was for practical/legitimate/non-evil reasons, there is at least one evil person hiding in that category.

You're right. It should've been discussed early yesterDay. I'm partially to blame as I should've taken the time to think about the Dead Thread more in the first half of the Day and grasp a better understanding of it (I finally did get a chance to peek at the Dead Thread of the last game with one to get a little better understanding of how it works...it wasn't until then I even realized the dead were allowed to post at Night). I didn't want to discuss the topic more at the end of yesterDay as I found that to be too much of a distraction when we needed to focus on who to lynch. I still stand by that.

Another option I can think of if we want to keep the list divided in two categories, is we can instruct the Dead Thread to use their empowerment vote toMorrow to communicate Inzil's role. The downside of that is we would be a Day behind on finding out roles if they already know Inzil's and toDay's empowerment vote would essentially have no meaning behind it.

Originally Posted by Eonwe

1. Everyone in the Dead Thread needs to be around around the deadline.
2. People would need to start voting earlier on the Living Thread so the Dead have time to discuss who is the best option out of those who have votes. I mean, I suppose they could agree to some kind of ranking, but I can imagine many ways in which that could get messed up.

And that is quite a problem. Because some people aren't ever able to be around at deadline and then there others who are only able to be active in the last few hours of the Day.

As for me, I can tell you that in most cases I am only able to be around during the first hours of the Day and then not again until the last hour or two.

On that note, I will be leaving for a day trip soon, though I should hopefully be back for the end of the Day. So I don't think I can add much more to the Dead Thread discussion toDay at least since once I return, I will need to focus on who to vote for.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

So today's the day we could see the duel, eh? I had guessed that we would have been aware of a visitor by now.

[Nerwen]

Proposed Empowerment List

ZIL = PREY
Boromir88
Brinniel
Eomer of the Rohirrim
Eönwë
Lalaith

ZIL = PREDATOR
Legate of Amon Lanc
Loslote
Mithalwen
Nerwen

NONE OF THE ABOVE
Nogrod
Pervinca Took
satansaloser2005
Shastanis Althreduin

Any objections?

[Lalaith]

Any objections?

Nope, that should give the Dead enough options to play with.
Btw - do they decide to empower before or after the votes?