Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ArcusCalion · 08-17-2017, 06:09 PM

Hi guys! I thought I'd add my 2 cents about the Athrabeth, to give a kinda third opinion and hopefully resolve some of the debates by allowing for more opinions.

I agree with Findegil on his point that it should be Finarfin, and not Arfin. This is too specific a linguistic gymnastic, and I think keeping the names the same throughout is better. However, I would favor Arvegil's option to keep it as "Arfin" whenever Finrod speaks, with a footnote using the quote from the shibboleth, presumably from the same author as the one who wrote the commentary on the Athrabeth. This is simply canonical fact that Finrod would have referred to him as Arfin, as FIngolfin was still high king ofthe Noldor.

As for the question of including Argon in the list of the dead, if we were to add the lines about him from the Shibboleth into the story of the first battle of the Noldor, then I see no reason why his mention would cause canonical ire. It replaces the (already at the time of writing) contra-canon statement about the death of Fingolfin, and keeps the sense of the understanding of loss, while still being entirely canonically accurate.

Findegil · 08-19-2017, 11:32 AM

About the change Finarfin -> Arfin: We have no hint that Tolkien would have made such a change in the course of such a long text. On the conteray, if consequently made, we would have to use in the Valinorien part of The Translation from the Elvish the Quenya names and after the anouncement of Thingol that his poeple should not answer to anyone using Quenya we would have to change them all to the Sindarin names. But again nothing of that is seen in the slightes way in all the texts we have. It is in the linguistical texts that Tolkien does explain such things. That is were they belong and in such I would also include them in our work. The sole exceptions that comes to mind are Melkor/Morgoth or Nienor/Niniel. And of these Nienor/Nieniel is a special case since it is only in a relativly short text where she is one of the main charachters. Melkor/Morgoth remains as the sole example, but he is again a main charachter and his name is omnipresent in the texts. Therefore that change is by no means detoriating the readability. Or let's say the reader will easily recognise the charachter before and after the change being very soon used to both names. That definitly would be different with Arfin. And an editorial note explaining to the reader a dificulty that we put ourself into the text is completly unaccatable in my understanding of the rules this project has given itself.

And there comes to mind this passge from the Shibboleth: '... Fëanor is the form nearly always used in histories and legends, but is as it stands only half Sindarized: the genuine Sindarin form was Faenor; the form Fëanor (the ë is only a device of transcription, not needed in the original) probably arose through scribal confusion, especially in documents written in Quenya, in which ea was frequent but ae did not normally occur.[/quote]If we follow Arvegil145's call for consitency, would that mean to change 'Fëanor' in the Valinorian part to 'Fëanaro' and afterwards to 'Faenor'. But than consitancy is lost instade of gained since 'Fëanor' is included three times in The Lord of the Rings where we can not change it. But was only to amphasis what I said before.
I realy quoted that passages because it shows the key argument why this change is unnessesary: 'the form always used in histories and legends' What we work on equaly if we allowed it an feign existance in Middle-earth or not, is such a 'historie or legend'. Therefore (at least in my view) it would even be possible to use the phrase 'the House of Hador' to describe a member of the leading family of the second clan that was born befor Hador.

But on that special cases of AFA-14 and AFA-15 I am willing to accept a change. What about 'from the People of Marach'? That phrase is used already at the begining of the Athrabeth, so it is a bit less specific since it is not restriced to the leading family to which Adanel belonged.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 08-19-2017, 12:16 PM

I agree with you on both point Findegil.

ArcusCalion · 08-21-2017, 12:33 PM

Actually looking back, in the Tale of Adanel, the introduction stresses the fact that she says "House of Hador" and uses this to say that it is a Numenorean tradition. I think Hador is then essential to the reading, and should not be changed to Marach.

ArcusCalion · 08-21-2017, 01:12 PM

Sorry for the triple post, but should we also include the Converse of Manwe and Eru? It is bundled with the Athrabeth texts, and concerns the nature of death. If we do include it, I would propose these changes:

Quote:

Eru answered: 'Let the houseless be re-housed!'
Manwë asked: 'How shall this be done?'
Eru answered: 'Let the body that was destroyed be re-made. {Or let} [Let] the naked fëa be re-born {as a child}.'

Tolkien abandoned the idea of rebirth in the children, so this should be removed.

Quote:

Eru said: 'I give you authority. The skills ye have already, if ye will take heed. Look and ye will ﬁnd that each spirit of My Children retaineth in itself the full imprint and memory of its former house and in its nakedness it is open to you, so that ye may clearly perceive all that is in it. After this imprint ye may make for it again such a house in all particulars as it had ere, evil befell it. Thus ye may send it back to the lands of the living. <Reincarnation of Elves (RE) The re-housed fëa will normally remain in Aman.> [But] those whom ye judge fit to be <RE transported back to Middle-earth>, if they desire it and understand clearly what they incur, ye shall surrender to Me, and I will consider them.’
{Then Manwë asked further: 'O Ilúvatar, hast Thou not spoken also of re-birth? Is that too within our power and authority?'
Eru answered: 'It shall be within your authority, but it is not in your power. Those whom ye judge ﬁt to be re-born, if they desire it and understand clearly what they incur, ye shall surrender to Me; and I will consider them.'}

I took the relevant lines from the problematic concluding lines, and inserted them into the final judgement of Eru, just to make it line up with the Glorfindel essay and the later ideas of Elvish rebirth.

Findegil · 08-23-2017, 03:04 PM

Okay, equally if this was intended to be n this thread or in one about The commig of the Elves please specify were you want to put the convers of Manwe with Eru.

I can see two places were this might fit: In both I would incooperate it intof teh debate about the death of Miriel. Either in that part of the darkening of Valinor or in Volume 3 of TftE.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 08-23-2017, 10:45 PM

This was intended to be put here, as I stated, since it is bundled with the texts of the Athrabeth, and is in relation to Finrod and Andreth discussing the idea of death and its comparison between the two races. I think that you are right, however, and that it should be included in the Finwe and Miriel material.

08-17-2017, 06:09 PM	#1
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Hi guys! I thought I'd add my 2 cents about the Athrabeth, to give a kinda third opinion and hopefully resolve some of the debates by allowing for more opinions. I agree with Findegil on his point that it should be Finarfin, and not Arfin. This is too specific a linguistic gymnastic, and I think keeping the names the same throughout is better. However, I would favor Arvegil's option to keep it as "Arfin" whenever Finrod speaks, with a footnote using the quote from the shibboleth, presumably from the same author as the one who wrote the commentary on the Athrabeth. This is simply canonical fact that Finrod would have referred to him as Arfin, as FIngolfin was still high king ofthe Noldor. As for the question of including Argon in the list of the dead, if we were to add the lines about him from the Shibboleth into the story of the first battle of the Noldor, then I see no reason why his mention would cause canonical ire. It replaces the (already at the time of writing) contra-canon statement about the death of Fingolfin, and keeps the sense of the understanding of loss, while still being entirely canonically accurate.

08-19-2017, 11:32 AM	#2
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	About the change Finarfin -> Arfin: We have no hint that Tolkien would have made such a change in the course of such a long text. On the conteray, if consequently made, we would have to use in the Valinorien part of The Translation from the Elvish the Quenya names and after the anouncement of Thingol that his poeple should not answer to anyone using Quenya we would have to change them all to the Sindarin names. But again nothing of that is seen in the slightes way in all the texts we have. It is in the linguistical texts that Tolkien does explain such things. That is were they belong and in such I would also include them in our work. The sole exceptions that comes to mind are Melkor/Morgoth or Nienor/Niniel. And of these Nienor/Nieniel is a special case since it is only in a relativly short text where she is one of the main charachters. Melkor/Morgoth remains as the sole example, but he is again a main charachter and his name is omnipresent in the texts. Therefore that change is by no means detoriating the readability. Or let's say the reader will easily recognise the charachter before and after the change being very soon used to both names. That definitly would be different with Arfin. And an editorial note explaining to the reader a dificulty that we put ourself into the text is completly unaccatable in my understanding of the rules this project has given itself. And there comes to mind this passge from the Shibboleth: '... Fëanor is the form nearly always used in histories and legends, but is as it stands only half Sindarized: the genuine Sindarin form was Faenor; the form Fëanor (the ë is only a device of transcription, not needed in the original) probably arose through scribal confusion, especially in documents written in Quenya, in which ea was frequent but ae did not normally occur.[/quote]If we follow Arvegil145's call for consitency, would that mean to change 'Fëanor' in the Valinorian part to 'Fëanaro' and afterwards to 'Faenor'. But than consitancy is lost instade of gained since 'Fëanor' is included three times in The Lord of the Rings where we can not change it. But was only to amphasis what I said before. I realy quoted that passages because it shows the key argument why this change is unnessesary: 'the form always used in histories and legends' What we work on equaly if we allowed it an feign existance in Middle-earth or not, is such a 'historie or legend'. Therefore (at least in my view) it would even be possible to use the phrase 'the House of Hador' to describe a member of the leading family of the second clan that was born befor Hador. But on that special cases of AFA-14 and AFA-15 I am willing to accept a change. What about 'from the People of Marach'? That phrase is used already at the begining of the Athrabeth, so it is a bit less specific since it is not restriced to the leading family to which Adanel belonged. Respectfully Findegil

08-19-2017, 12:16 PM	#3
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	I agree with you on both point Findegil.

08-21-2017, 12:33 PM	#4
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Actually looking back, in the Tale of Adanel, the introduction stresses the fact that she says "House of Hador" and uses this to say that it is a Numenorean tradition. I think Hador is then essential to the reading, and should not be changed to Marach.

08-23-2017, 03:04 PM	#6
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Okay, equally if this was intended to be n this thread or in one about The commig of the Elves please specify were you want to put the convers of Manwe with Eru. I can see two places were this might fit: In both I would incooperate it intof teh debate about the death of Miriel. Either in that part of the darkening of Valinor or in Volume 3 of TftE. Respectfully Findegil

08-23-2017, 10:45 PM	#7
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	This was intended to be put here, as I stated, since it is bundled with the texts of the Athrabeth, and is in relation to Finrod and Andreth discussing the idea of death and its comparison between the two races. I think that you are right, however, and that it should be included in the Finwe and Miriel material.