4 Of the coming of the Elves

[ArcusCalion]

Hi all! I have finished reviewing Findegil's changes for this section, and I will here place my thoughts. This will be quite a long post, so I apologize. Before I begin, I want to commend Findegil for doing such a thorough job of finding all relevant passages to be included.

all bits in italics are my proposed changes. Any section not remarked on is one I've agreed with completely.

CE-EX-01: I agree about this insertion, but your version is somewhat choppy, as it contains some repetition. Maybe:

§18 In all this time, since Melkor overthrew the Lamps, the Middle-earth east of the Mountains was without light. While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong. In those lands and forests Oromë would often hunt; and there too at times Yavanna came, singing sorrowfully; for she was grieved {at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken.} <AAm because all the growth and promise of the spring of Arda was checked. And she set a sleep upon many fair things that had arisen in the Spring, both tree and herb and beast and bird, so that they should not age but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> But the other Valar came seldom thither CE-EX-01

this way we keep the Sleep of Yavanna without repeating the wanderings of her and Orome. The next paragraph would simply pick up in the AAm insertion from before.

CE-SL-01: agreed. just a question, are we going with Ork or Orc?

CE-SL-02, -03, -04, -05, -06 and -07: I agree with the fact that they need change, but I have a few minor suggested changes. For 03 we should remove "again" from "the stars were again shining in the morrow-dim" because in this version they have always been shining, so there is no need to make note of their shining "again." For 04 In a similar vein, the preceding sentence reads: "It was still night and clouds were in the sky." we should no doubt change "still night" to "dark" because again, it was always night then. There is a reference you did not mark which I will call CE-SL-04.2 For 05 I think we could keep simply "by twilight" but we could also simply delete it. For 06 I think we should delete the reference to the Sun of summer. Inserting "later" to me seems awkward, and also seems to contradict that the sun was for Men and gave them the greatest joy. For 07 I would remove "in the spring of the year" because it was during the sleep of yavanna, and so there were no seasons.

CE-EX-05: I agree about the insertion. Two small things: in your version Cuiviénen is missing its accent mark here and several other places, but that's minor. The other question is "Endon." the published Sil has Endor, so are we sure that "Endon" is the latest form?

CE-EX-07: This section does not work at all tonally or in its subject matter. This is Tolkien analysing the nature of Morgoth, and does not fit at all in this section.

CE-EX-08: The transition is jarring, and I think a subheading is need “Of Orcs.” If we remove the previous paragraph, then it should be placed here. Otherwise, this is good, as it flows with the narrative.

CE-EX-10: I could not find where it was moved to. Why is it out of place there?

CE-EX-11: this has too colloquial of a tone, maybe:

CE-EX-11 <Letter to Mrs. Munby: There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords, {we naturally would not learn}[not] much [was learned] about their lives. {Not much was known}>.

The last sentence is redundant.

CE-SL-08: agreed.

I have one question:

This view of the origin of the Orcs thus meets with difficulties of chronology. But though Men may take some comfort in this, the theory remains nonetheless the most probable. It accords with all that is known of Melkor, and of the nature and behavior of Orcs – and of Men. Melkor was impotent to produce any living thing, but skilled in the corruption of things that did not proceed from himself, if he could dominate them. But is he had indeed attempted to make creatures of his own in mockery of the Incarnates, he would, like Aulë, only have succeeded in producing puppets : his creatures would have acted only while the attention of his will was upon them, and they would have shown no reluctance to execute any command of his, even if it were to destroy themselves.

In this version, is Of the Dwarves going with the Anaxartaron Onyalie? Or in the chapter Concerning the Naugrim and the Edain?

CE-EX-17: The text of the note is not finished, and so inserting it as is does not work. Perhaps a rewording of:

CE-EX-17 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs; but by practicing when embodied procreation they would {(cf. Melian) [}become{]} more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state, {(}even demon-form{)}, until released by death {(killing)}; and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, {like Sauron, }be {'damned': i.e.} reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically {(or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?)}.>

I removed the poltergeist reference. I think this is Tolkien simply thinking as he wrote, and does not fit into the flow of the narrative.

CE-EX-18: agreed.

I noticed that you stopped after

This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.

Why not give the next paragraph?

CE-EX-18.2 <Myths Transformed, Text X:Orcs It is true, of course, that {Morgoth}[Melkor] held the Orcs in dire thralldom; for in their corruption they had lost almost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did its pressure upon them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ‘eye’ wherever they might be; and when {Morgoth}[Melkor] was at last removed from Arda the Orcs that survived in the West were scattered, leaderless and almost witless, and were for a long time without control or purpose.>

CE-EX-19, -20: The section above and this one make me wonder if this whole “Of Orcs” should be moved to the chapter “Of the Sindar.” This way we can use the Morgoth references, and the references to Angband will not seem so out of the blue. It has not been named before, unless I am mistaken.

CE-EX-21: The word (sterile!) is awkward. Maybe remove:

CE-EX-21 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs These may then even have been mated with beasts {(sterile!)} - and later Men. Their life-span would be diminished. And dying they would go to Mandos and be held in prison till the End.>

CE-EX-22: see-19, -20 above.

CE-EX-24: I cannot find a source for the subheading, but this heading is plainly necessary, and the Captivity of Melkor is the period and the event it is describing, so it works.

CE-EX-26, -27: This section feels tonally jarring, perhaps some minor editing is needed. I agree with -27 however. Maybe:

CE-EX-26 <LT Oromë {pricks}[pricked] over the plain, and drawing rein he {shouts}[shouted] aloud so that all the ears in {Valmar}[Valimar] {may}[could] hear him: ‘Tulielto! Tulieito! - They have come - they have come!’ Then he {stands}[stood] midway between the Two Trees and {winds}{[wound]}[blew] his horn, and the gates of {Valmar}[Valimar] {are}[were] opened, and the {Vali}[Valar] {trooped}[came] into the plain, for they guessed that tidings of wonder {have}[had] come into the world. Then [i]{spake} Oromë [spoke]: ‘Behold the woods of the Great Lands, even in {Palisor}[Endon/r] the midmost region where the pinewoods murmur unceasingly, are full of a strange noise. There did I wander, and lo! {'twas} [it was] as if folk arose betimes beneath the latest stars. There was a stir among the distant trees and words were spoken suddenly, and feet went to and fro. Then did I CE-EX-27{say what is this deed that Palúrien my mother has wrought in secret, and I sought her out and questioned her, and she answered: “This is no work of mine, but the hand of one far greater did this.} think: 'Ilúvatar hath awakened his children at the last - ride home to Valinor and tell the {Gods}[Valar] that the Eldar have come indeed!{”}’
Then shouted all the people of Valinor: ‘I-Eldar tulier - the Eldar have come’ - and it was not until that hour that the {Gods}[Valar] knew that their joy had contained a flaw, or that they had waited in hunger for its completion, but now they knew that the world had been an empty place beset with loneliness having no children for her own.>

CE-EX-28: Similar to the last one, the tone is somewhat jarring. Maybe:

CE-EX-28 <LT and of the redes there spoken the {Gods}[Valar] devised a plan of wisdom, and the thought of Ulmo was therein and much of the craft of Aulë and the wide knowledge of Manwë. Behold, Aulë now gathered six metals: copper, silver, tin, lead, iron, and gold, and taking a portion of each made with his {magic}[power] a seventh which he named therefore tilcal, and this had all the properties of the six and many of its own. Its color was bright green or red in varying lights and it could not be broken, and Aulë alone could forge it. Thereafter he forged a mighty chain, making it of all seven metals welded with spells to a substance of uttermost hardness and brightness and smoothness, but of tilcal he had not sufficient to add more than a little to each link. Nonetheless he made two manacles of tilcal only and four fetters likewise. Now the chain was named Angainor, the oppressor{, and the manacles Vorotemnar that bind forever, but the fetters Ilterendi for they might not be filed or cleft}.
But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>

The names for the manacles and fetters seem to need extensive linguistic revision, and so maybe it is best to leave them out.

CE-SL-12: Why was “and make an end” removed?

CE-EX-30, -31, -32, -33, -34, and -35: The first part of this section feels to me to be very much against the tone and presentation of the Valar in the later legendarium. They are presented as physical pagan gods in war gear, whereas Tolkien later came to view the Valar as more spiritual and demiurgic in their conflicts. This description of them seems to reduce them from their state in the later legendarium as the Powers of the Earth to simply pagan gods. However, if we want to retain it, we must remove the reference to Salmar and Omar, as they were not major figures in the later legendarium:

CE-EX-30 <LT Now as Aulë smithied the {Gods}[Valar] arrayed themselves in armor, CE-EX-31{ which they had of Makar, and he was fain to see them} putting on weapons and going as to war CE-EX-32{, howso their wrath be directed against Melko}. But when the great {Gods}[Valar] and all their folk were armed, then Manwë climbed into his blue chariot whose three horses were the whitest that roamed in Oromë's domain, and his hand bore a great white bow that would shoot an arrow like a gust of wind across the widest seas. CE-EX-33{Fionwe his son stood behind him and Nornore}[Eönwë] who was his herald ran before; but Oromë rode alone upon CE-EX-34{a chestnut}[Nahar his] horse and had a spear, and Tulkas strode mightily beside his stirrup, having a tunic of hide and a brazen belt and no weapon save a gauntlet upon his right hand, iron-bound. CE-EX-35 {Telimektar his son but just war-high was by his shoulder with a long sword girt about his waist by a silver girdle. }There rode the {Fanturi}[Fëanturi] upon a car of black, and there was a black horse upon the side of Mandos and a dappled grey upon the side of Lóriën, {and Salmar and Omar came behind running speedily,} but Aulë who was late tarrying overlong at his smithy came last, and he was not armed, but caught up his long-handled hammer as he left his forge and fared hastily to the borders of the Shadowy Sea, and the fathoms of his chain were borne behind by four of his smithy-folk. Upon those shores Falman-Ossë met them and drew them across on a mighty raft whereon he himself sat in shimmering mail; but Ulmo {Vailimo}[Vaiaro] was far ahead roaring in his deep-sea car and trumpeting in wrath upon a horn of conches.

The last part may be kept, even if we discard the first, but will then require revision:

[quote] { Thus was it that}[Then] the {Gods}[Valar] got them over the sea and through the isles, and set foot upon the wide lands, and marched in great power and anger ever more to the North. Thus they passed the Mountains of Iron and {Hisilome}[Hithlum] that lies dim beyond, and came to the rivers and hills of ice. There {Melko}[Melkor] shook the earth beneath them, and he made snow-capped heights to belch forth flame, yet for the greatness of their array his vassals who infested all their ways availed nothing to hinder them on their journey.>

CE-EX-37: Ringil should be Illuin

CE-EX-39, -40, -41, -42, and -43: This section is tonally jarring in many places, being an analytical text of motives, and often does not translate well into narrative form. I will recommend my changes:

CE-EX-39 <MT; VI But Melkor had already progressed some way towards becoming CE-EX-40{the Morgoth, }a tyrant (or central tyranny and will), {{+}plus}[considered with the sum of] his agents{’}. Only the total contained the old power of the complete Melkor; so that if {'}the CE-EX-41{Morgoth}[tyrant]{'} could be reached or temporarily separated from his agents he was much more nearly controllable and {on a power level with}[equal to] the Valar. The Valar {find}[found] that they {can}[could] deal with his agents {(sc. armies, Balrogs, etc.)} {piecemeal}[individually]. So {that} they {come}[came] at last to Utumno itself and {find}[found] that {'the Morgoth'}[Melkor] {has}[had] no longer for the moment sufficient {'}force{'} {(in any sense)} to shield himself from direct personal contact . CE-EX-42 <LT{and now they follow}[And now the Valar followed] Manwë and his herald into the caverns of the North. There sat {Melko}[Melkor] in his chair, and that chamber was lit with flaming braziers and full of evil {magic}[power], and strange shapes moved with feverish movement in and out, but snakes of great size curled and uncurled without rest about the pillars that upheld that lofty roof.> Manwë at last {faces}[faced] Melkor again, as he {has}[had] not done since he entered Arda. Both {are}[were] amazed: Manwë to perceive the decrease in Melkor as a person; Melkor to perceive this also from his own point of view{:}[; as] he {has}[had] now less personal force than Manwë, and {can}[could] no longer daunt him with his gaze.
{Either}{Manwë} {must tell}{[told] him} {so or}{/and/ he}[He] {must }himself suddenly {realize (or both) }[realized] that this {has}[had] happened: he {is}[had] {'}dispersed{'}. But the lust to have creatures under him, dominated, {has}[had] become habitual and necessary to Melkor, so that even if the process was reversible (/as it /possibly was by absolute and unfeigned self-abasement and repentance only) he {cannot}[could not] bring himself to do it. [footnote to the text: One of the reasons for his self-weakening is that he has given to his {'}creatures{'}, CE-EX-43{Orcs, Balrogs, etc.} power of recuperation and multiplication{. So}[, so] that they {will}[would] gather again without further specific orders. Part of his native creative power {has}[had] gone out into making an independent evil growth out of his control.] {As with all other characters there must be}{/In/ a trembling}[There was a] moment {when it is}[when]/he was/ in the balance{:}[; and] he nearly {repents}[repented]- and {does}[did] not, and {becomes}[became] much wickeder, and more foolish.
Possibly (and he {thinks}[thought] it possible) he could {now} at that moment be humiliated against his own will and {'}chained{'} - if and before his dispersed forces {reassemble}[reassembled]. So - as soon as he {has}[had] mentally rejected repentance - he {(just like Sauron afterwards on this model)} {makes}[made] a mockery of self-abasement and repentance. From {which}[this] actually he {gets}[got]a {kind of} perverted pleasure as in desecrating something holy - [[footnote] for the mere contemplating of the possibility of genuine repentance, if that did not come specially then as a direct grace from Eru, was at least one last flicker of his true primeval nature.] He {feigns}[feigned] remorse and repentance. He {actually}[even] {kneels}[knelt] before Manwë and {surrenders}[surrendered] - in the first instance to avoid being chained by the Chain Angainor, which once upon him he {fears}[feared] would not ever be able to be shaken off. But also suddenly he {has}[had] the idea of penetrating the vaunted fastness of Valinor, and ruining it. So he {offers}[offered] to become {'}the least of the Valar{'}, and servant of them each and all, to help (in advice and skill) in repairing all the evils and hurts he {has}[had] done. It {is}[was] this offer which {seduces}[seduced] or {deludes}[deluded] Manwë[.]{ -} Manwë {must be shown to have}/had/ his own inherent fault (though not sin) {[footnote to the text: Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.)]}: he {has}[had] become engrossed (partly out of sheer fear of Melkor, partly out of desire to control him) in amendment, healing, re-ordering { - even 'keeping the status quo' -} to the loss of all creative power and even to weakness in dealing with difficult and perilous situations. [Thus,] against the advice of some of the Valar (such as Tulkas) he {grants}[granted] Melkor's prayer.

CE-EX-45: Some changes:

CE-EX-45 <LT Now {is} a court [was] set upon the slopes of Taniquetil and {Melko}[Melkor] arraigned before all the {Vali great and small} [Valar] {,lying bound before} [and] the silver chair of Manwë. Against him {speaketh}[spoke] Ossë, and Oromë, and Ulmo in deep ire, and Vána in abhorrence, proclaiming his deeds of cruelty and violence.

I left the silver chair of Manwe in bc there is no reason to delete it as long as Melkor is not bound. But the line about the Vali feels very “lost tales” and not very “silmarillion.”

CE-SL-15: agreed. But shortly after this there are some lines that are awkward:

But at the council Melkor {is}[was] not given immediate freedom. The Valar in assembly {will}/did/ not tolerate this. Melkor {is}[was] remitted to Mandos (to stay there in 'reclusion' and meditate, and complete his repentance - and also his plans for redress ).
Then {he begins}[Melkor began] to doubt the wisdom of his own policy, and would have rejected it all and burst out into flaming rebellion[.] {- but}[But] he {is}[was] now absolutely isolated from his agents and in {enemy territory}[the lands of his enemies] {. He}[and he] {cannot}/could not do this/. Therefore he {swallows}[swallowed] the bitter pill (but it greatly {increases}[increased] his hate, and he ever {afterward}[afterwards] accused Manwë of being faithless).>

Just cleared out a few colloquialisms and cleaned up the sentence structure so that it resembles a narrative format rather than an analytical essay.

CE-EX-48, -49: looks good, except {Valmar}[Valimar] and {Palisor}[Endon/r]

CE-EX-50, -51: This requires some changes:

CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar {– ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world ?’} In this {Measse}[Mandos and Niënna] backed him. {and Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else;} {yet}[Yet] was Varda vehement in support of Yavanna and Tuivána, and indeed her love for the Eldar has ever been the greatest of all the folk of Valinor; and Aulë and Lóriën, Oromë and Nessa CE-EX-51{ and Ulmo most mightily} proclaimed their desire for the bidding of the Eldar to dwell among the {Gods}[Valar].
Wherefore, {albeit Ossë spake cautiously against it – belike out of that ever-smoldering jealousy and rebellion he felt against Ulmo - }it was the voice of the council that the Eldar should be bidden, and the {Gods}[Valar] awaited but the judgement of Manwë.

I took out the quote of Makar, as Ulmo would never say this. This is not his reason for opposing the March. He wishes them to be free, not to be rid of them. I also removed Osse, since he is not a Valar, and in this version he isn’t “rebelling against Ulmo” since he’s agreeing with him.

CE-EX-52: This requires minor editing:

[b]CE-EX-53 <LT Now once more {is}[was a] council set and Manwë {sitteth}[sat] before the {Gods}[Valar] there amid the Two Trees - and those had now borne light for four ages. Every one of the {Vali}[Valar] {fare}[fared] thither, even Ulmo {Vailimo}[Vaiaro] in great haste from the Outer Seas, and his face is eager and glad.

CE-EX-56: This needs some work, firstly because of the mention of Silmo watering the roots of Silpion. If he is to be included in Chapter 2, then this reference can stand. As for the speeches of the Elves, I changed it to be more general, bc in this version they are not the first generation of Elves:

CE-EX-56 <LT {Behold}[behold] now brought by {Nornore}[Eönwë] the three Elves stood before the {Gods}[Valar], and it was at that time the changing of the lights, and {Silpion}[Telperion] was waning but Laurelin was awakening to his greatest glory. {even as Silmo emptied the urn of silver about the roots of the other Tree} Then those Elves..…
But {Noleme}[Finwë] answering said: ‘Lo! Most mighty one, whence indeed come we! For {meseems I}[our fathers] awoke {but now} from a sleep eternally profound, whose vast dreams already are forgotten.’ And {Tinwe}[Elwë] said thereto that {his heart}[their hearts] told {him}[them] that {he was}[they were] {new-}come from illimitable regions, yet he might not recollect by what dark and strange paths {he}[they] had been brought; and last spake {Inwe}[Ingwë], who had been gazing upon Laurelin while the others spake, and he said: ‘Knowing neither whence {I}[we] come nor by what ways nor yet whither I go, the world that we are in is but one great wonderment to me, and methinks I love it wholly, yet it fills me altogether with a desire for light.’
Then Manwë saw that Ilúvatar had {wiped}[removed] from the minds of the Eldar all knowledge of the manner of their coming, and that the {Gods}[Valar] might not discover it; and he was filled with deep astonishment.{…} Turning to the three Eldar he said: ‘Go ye back now to your kindreds and {Nornore}[Eönwë] shall bring you swiftly there, even to {Koivie-neni}[Cuiviénen] in {Palisor}[Endon/r] . Behold, this is the word of Manwë Súlimo, and the voice of the Valar's desire, that the people of the Eldalië, the Children of Ilúvatar, fare to Valinor, and there dwell in the splendor of Laurelin and the radiance of {Silpion}[Telperion] and know the happiness of the {Gods}[Valar]. An abode of surpassing beauty shall they possess, and the {Gods}[Valar] will aid them in its building.’

CE-EX-58, -58.3, -58.4, -58.5: These are fine, but the “(see below)” should be removed. The reader will see for themselves as they read on.

CE-EX-59 to the end of -60: These sections should go under the next section, to be consistent.

CE-EX-65 till the end: The complex philological discussions of the Elven clan names should be included, but I do not think they belong in the narrative itself. I think the QS (and AAm) sections should be put under the main “Of the Captivity of Melkor” heading, and the clan names, including the Avari discussion, should be placed under the subheading “The Clan Names, with Notes on Other Names of the Divisions of the Eldar.” To leave it as is is to ruin the flow of the narrative entirely, and make it virtually unreadable.

Phew, that was a long one! Fndegil, you did an incredible job synthesizing so many varied sources of such differing types, and I really have to commend you!

[ArcusCalion]

I was just throwing together a draft for the next chapter and I saw a good addition from the Grey Annals for the Captivity of Melkor. Maybe in this way:

Yet they had no part in those deeds; and little do they know of the riding of the power of the West against the North in the beginning of their days, and of the fire and tumult of the Battle of the {Gods}[Valar]. In those days the shape of Middle-earth was changed and broken and the seas were moved.
CE-EX-35.2 <GA In these regions, therefore, were fought the first battles of the Powers of the West and the North, and all this land was much broken, and it took then that shape which it had until the coming of {Fionwe}[Eönwë]. For the Great Sea broke in upon the coasts and made a deep gulf to the southward, and many lesser bays were made between the Great Gulf and Helcaraxë far in the North, where Middle-earth and Aman came nigh together. Of these bays the Bay of Balar was the chief; and into it the mighty river Sirion flowed down from the new-raised highlands northwards: Dorthonion and the mountains about Hithlum. At first these lands upon either side of Sirion were ruinous and desolate because of the War of the Powers, but soon growth began there, while most of Middle earth slept in the Sleep of Yavanna, because the Valar of the Blessed Realm had set foot there; and there were young woods under the bright stars. These Melian the Maia fostered; and she dwelt most in the glades of Nan Elmoth beside the River Celon. There also dwelt her nightingales.>
CE-SL-13{ Tulkas it was who at the last wrestled with Melkor and overthrew him}

[Findegil]

Hello guys,

I just wanted to let you know that I have read through ArcusCalions comments. Thanks for the detailed criticism. I think some of your suggestion will make it to the final text. (e.g. your CE-EX-35.2). I as well have read your misplaced post in thread about the Athrabeth (probably you should replace it there with a comment that is a misplaced post and but it in here). I will have to read through all this again with my original text beside and my own comments to my changes as well. But it is late already here in Europe (3 o’clock in the night actually) and I will therefore postpone that. (Since I am very occupied in real life, am not sure how soon that might be.)

But one more general comment might be in order: I can see your point that the stuff from MT is awkward in style if taken to stand inside a narrative. But we have to be careful in that territory. The project once to the great annoyance of one of its initiators decided to shy bake from any stylistic change. That meant our finished work is not supposed to have any high literature value. (At least in the first step. If motivation would last - as it seems it has not - the members that wanted the stylistic changes envisioned a second phase, in which they would go through the finished work again and remove all the tonally jarring jumps.)

Respectfully
Findegil

P.S.: I see the need to have my draft of the chapters before this one up here in the forum, and to work on that was what brought me here today in the first place.

[ArcusCalion]

What post do you mean Findegil? All my posts in the Athrabeth thread were there by intention.

[Findegil]

Okay at least a first go at the comments of ArcusCalion:
CE-EX-01: If we have to fragment our sources farther to make them work together than I think this might be the better arangement:

<$18 In all this time ... In those lands and forests Oromë would often hunt; and there too at times Yavanna came, singing sorrowfully; for she was grieved at the darkness of Middle-earth and ill content that it was forsaken{.} CE-EX-01<AAm and because all the growth and promise of the spring of Arda was checked. And she set a sleep upon many fair things that had arisen in the Spring, both tree and herb and beast and bird, so that they should not age but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> But the other Valar came seldom thither{;}. CE-EX-01.2 But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he slept not, but watched and laboured; and the evil things that he had perverted walked abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread>; and in the North Melkor built his strength, and gathered his demons about him. ...

Ork or Orc: As far as I remember it should be Orc, since that is what JRR Tolkien used in his publication, even so he changed his mind and wrote in a remark that he in futre would use Ork, it was never changed in The Hobbit or LotR.

CE-SL-03: Agreed.

CE-SL-03.8: 'still night' to 'dark' in the sentence before CE-SL-04: Agreed.

CE-SL-04.2: Please explain what you nominated with this? I could not find any change in between CE-SL-04 and CE-SL-05.

CE-SL-05: Agreed.

CE-SL-06: Agreed.

CE-SL-07: But the comparision is with later times when there was a 'morrowdim' and 'even-dim' and with that for sure as well seasons.

CE-EX-05: Cuiviénen: Thank you for finding. I will corret it.
Endon/Endor: Frankly speaking I don't know. Please feel free to research this since I am away from my books.


CE-EX-07; CE-EX-08: I do not agree that CE-EX-07 'does not work at all in its subject matter.' The subject is exactly Melkor's corrupting power which anabled him to creat the Orks. I agree so that it might be better to adapt it 'tonally' at least slightly (see below). To better the transition we might reinstall CE-EX-06 after CE-EX-07 and if you still feel the need of a sub-heading that should be inserted before §45 and it should be simply 'Orcs' taken from Myths Transformed, Text VIII or do we have a sub-heading some where in our source texts 'Of Orcs'? All this would lead to:

... and all the noblest of the Quendi were drawn towards it.
CE-EX-05.5 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs Orcs
>$45 But those hapless ... were corrupted and enslaved. CE-EX-07 <Myths Transformed, Text VIII: Orcs {It does however seem best to view }Melkor's corrupting power {as }always {starting}started, at least, in the moral or theological level. ... and suffering a slow progressive weakening of their bodies.>CE-EX-06 Thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orkor in envy and mockery of the Eldar, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes.
CE-EX-08 <Myths Transformed, Text IX The Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word ...

CE-EX-10: Mh, I couldn't find the later place either. So we probabaly should reinstall it here.

CE-EX-11: I agree on the last sentence, but I do not see why we would need the change in the first.

Chapter '3 Concerning Naugrim, Ents and Eagles' has the following sub-chapters:
'Of Aulë and the Dwarves' with the sub-heading 'Here are the words of Pengolod concerning the Naugrim' and
'Anaxartaron Onyalie' with the sub-heading 'Of Ents and Eagles'.

CE-EX-17: Why do oyu remove the '(', ')' around 'even demon form'?
I also do not see the need to delet '(killing)'.
The same is true for the removal of ''damned': i.e.'. We might aksed damned by whom? But or reads might ask that question as well. And their answer is as good as ours.
I am not willing to let the 'poltergeist' slip away that easy! May be we change her to make it less essay like formulation:

... make it effective physikally ({or would }a very dwindled dea Orc-state might be a poltergeist{?}).>

CE-EX-18.2: I did not take that § because I thaught of using it together with the follwoing §§, probably as in insertion into the Story of the Alliance between Moria and the Northmann in the Second Age.

CE-EX-19, CE-EX-20: Angband is mention at the end of Chapter 1.

CE-EX-21: To remove 'sterile' is a no-go for me. The emphasis (!) is Tolkiens and the whole note shows that there was a way of 'sterile' cross breading, at least for the big bad bosses. This info is what I think we must transport, and with removing the 'sterile' we would loss that.

CE-EX-24: That is what 'editorial addition' means: An addition with out source in Tolkiens texts.

CE-EX-26, CE-EX-27: I agree on {Palisor}[Endon/r]. But the rest of your changes is only for reason of stlye. In this phase 1 of the project we have up to know kept away from such changes.

CE-EX-28: Okay, here I agree at least to a few changes: 'magic' might be out of place for the crafts of the Valar. So I agree to the change of magic to power in the making of tilkal. In the footnote I would change 'magic' names to 'poetic' names.
Can you give at least a hint what is linguistically wrong with 'Vorotemnar' and 'Ilterendi' -just for the record.

CE-SL-12: I removed 'and make an end' because only two sentences above we learn that the war was undertaken without hope of real victory. What else would 'an end' (of what so ever) be, than real victory?

Okay, here I have to stop to get at least a tinny bit of sleep. I will go on as soon as times allows.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

CE-EX-01: agreed.

CE-SL-04.2: Looking now, I cannot find what I was referencing, so I was probably making a mistake.

CE-EX-05: I have just looked into it, and it seems the latest form was Endor, as in the Sil77:

The reference to the site of Kuivienen is interesting. Of this no more is said in the other tradition than that it lay ‘in the East of the Middle-earth’ (QS $20, preserved throughout the later tests). In AAm Kuivienen lay N.E. of Endon, the midmost point. In the list of names accompanying the Ambarkanta (IV. 241) appears ‘ambar-endya or Middle Earth of which Endor is the midmost point’, and Endor is written over the centre of the middle-land in the Ambarkanta diagrams (IV.243,245) — on the map (IV.248-9) it is marked as a point: ‘Endor Earth-middle’, and here it was corrected to Endon, the form in the present passage of AAm, though later changed back again to Endor (so also on the typescript of AAm my father correctedEndon to Endor here and in $41, p. 80). See IV.254-5.

CE-EX-11: I felt it was tonally off, but now that I know we are not changing the style of things to be congruent, then the first sentence must stay as it is.

CE-EX-17: I agree about killing, but to me the word 'damned' and the word 'theological' are too grounded in real world terminology to be applicable in the Ardan conception. but this might be again the issue of style and I am not sure if would fall under the banner of things not to be changed. Your poltergeist addition looks good.

CE-EX-81.2: Ah ok that makes sense

CE-EX-21: I see that you are right, but sterile cannot simply stand as is, even with the hesitation to change the style. This is simply not in narrative format at all, and should possibly be changed to:

These may then even have been mated with beasts ([and these were] sterile{!}) - and later Men.

CE-EX-28: to be honest, I have no real reason to think they are linguistically invalid, beyond the fact that they do not quite "sound" right to me. However, if no one has any greater knowledge of Quenya evolution than me, I suppose they should stay.

CE-SL-12: makes sense.

[Findegil]

CE-EX-07 & CE-EX-17: For 'theological' I can see your reason to find it out of place in a Middle-earth jargon. And I agree hasintatingly to remove it. But for 'damned'? Why should that not be used?

CE-EX-21: I see that your interpretation what the 'sterile' insert means is completely differnt from my one. For me it was a qualifier for the process not for the outcome and it was a kind of precaussion against accusation of Zoophilia. It seems that we can not change the sentence, since we would fix then one interpretation.

CE-EX-28: Okay, I will at least try to look abit more intensliy, if I find arguments against the elvish names.

Resspectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Damned is not bad, I suppose the quotation marks seem out of place.

CE-EX-21: even if we had different interpretations, we cannot simply leave it as (sterile!) as that is not grammatically correct at all, as tolkien was simply jotting thoughts down. We must either remove it or pick one.