2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[Findegil]

What do we know about Nienna and Vairë? See here descriptions in the Valaquenta:

... Vairë the Weaver is his[Mandos] spouse, who weaves all things that have ever been in Time into her storied webs, and the halls of Mandos that ever widen as the ages pass are clothed with them.
...
Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of Vala-04.2 {the Fëanturi}<Vq2 Námo>; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.

For Este we also have to take into account the Story of Miriel:

Therefore when Nienna came to him and renewed her prayer for Míriel, he consented, accepting the abnegation of Finwë as her ransom. Then the fëa of Míriel was released and came before Manwë and received his blessing; and she went then to Lóriën and re-entered her body, and awoke again, as one that cometh out of a deep sleep; and she arose and her body was refreshed. But after she had stood in the twilight of Lóriën a long while in thought, remembering her former life, and all the tidings that she had learned, her heart was still sad, and she had no desire to return to her own people. Therefore she went to the doors of the House of Vairë and prayed to be admitted; and this prayer was granted, although in that House none of the Living dwelt nor have others ever entered it in the body. But Míriel was accepted by Vairë and became her chief handmaid; and all tidings of the Noldor down the years from their beginning were brought to her, and she wove them in webs historial, so fair and skilled that they seemed to live, imperishable, shining with a light of many hues fairer than are known in Middle-earth. This labour Finwë is at times permitted to look upon. And still she is at work, though her name has been changed. For now she is named Fíriel, which to the Eldar signifies 'She that died', and also 'She that sighed'. As fair as the webs of Fíriel is praise that is given seldom even to works of the Eldar.

This story as well makes clear that Vairë and Nienna were often among the dead Elves in the Halls of Waiting, because all the talk between Míriel and Finwë on the on side and Vairë on the other took place there and because Nienna is the one that approaches Mandos with the desire ofre-housing from Míriel.

So what do I make out of it: The Hall Fui is very unlikely a place ‘loved’ by Vairë. If the work of Míriel is taken as an example the House of Vairë is by no means dark form the inside. It must then be rather colourful. For Nienna on the other hand in here mourning and in teaching ‘pity, and endurance in hope’ the Hall Fui to which the dead Men are summoned and where they wait for a time before going to the fate Men, seems a very fitting place. Especially since the fate of Men had to be accepted in a way with ‘Estel’ only not with ‘Amdir’, that is with belief in the good will of Eru rather than with hope build on experience.
That said, I propose the following changes:[quote] So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Nienna] his {wife}[sister] of tears might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. To Vê {Fui}[Nienna]

[ArcusCalion]

I heartily disagree with this change for two reasons. Firstly, Nienna is said in the Valquenta to have Halls apart that are west of West upon the borders of the world. Therefore, while it says she comes to Mandos, she is not said to have a hall therein where she sits and passes judgement. Vaire, however, is said to dwell in Mandos, and is also said to have a house. These two facts would let us believe that she has halls in Mandos that are set apart for her. I do agree with you that the description of Fui does not fit her house at all in the later conception, and so cannot be assigned to her. But the fact remains that Nienna does not have a hall in Mandos, as she has already her own halls alone. She does not pass judgement on souls, but gives them comfort and consolation.

Mightier than Estë is Nienna, sister of the Fëanturi; she dwells alone. She is acquainted with grief, and mourns for every wound that Arda has suffered in the marring of Melkor. So great was her sorrow, as the Music unfolded, that her song turned to lamentation long before its end, and the sound of mourning was woven into the themes of the World before it began. But she does not weep for herself; and those who hearken to her learn pity, and endurance in hope. Her halls are west of West, upon the borders of the world; and she comes seldom to the city of Valimar where all is glad. She goes rather to the halls of Mandos, which are near to her own; and all those who wait in Mandos cry to her, for she brings strength to the spirit and turns sorrow to wisdom. The windows of her house look outward from the walls of the world.

My second objection stems from the fact that only Mandos passes judgement on the souls of the dead, be they Elf, Man, Dwarf, or Orc. Thus assigning Nienna (or Vaire) the role of judging Men is fan fiction at best, and contradictory at worst.

As you say, the description of her halls hardly fits the idea of them presented in the Statute and so perhaps it would be best to append the bit about the judgement of Men to the Namo paragraph, and leave the Fui paragraph out entirely.

[Findegil]

Okay, the idea behind my editing was the following: My addition of ‘in Mandos’ was meant as a statement that the hall Fui is not here ‘home’. But as your reaction makes clear this is not enough.
Nonetheless a few things I have to remark about your arguments:
- ‘reads their hearts‘ is by no means equivalent with passing judgement. The description of Vefanturs actions is clear. He does pass judgement. But Fui does only read in their hearts, which can as well have the intention to help them were specifically in the process of purging (since that seems to be the function of Mandos for Men and Elves: a kind of Purgatory).
- I didn’t say that the hall Fui would not fit the later Nienna. I said it would not fit Vaire! And that might have been true already in LT.
But however I agree that it is more save to shift both halls or at least both thrones to Namo:

So fair were these abodes VT-EX-14 {and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor} that {Vefantur}[Namo] and VT-EX-14.2{Fui}[Vaire] his wife{ of tears} might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the north-ward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh Arvalin, they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the {Gods}[Valar] might be housed to their liking, he did so, and they and all their shadowy folk aided him. Very vast were those caverns that they made stretching even down under the Shadowy Seas, and they are full of gloom and filled with echoes, and all that deep abode is known to {Gods}[Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat {Vefantur}[Namo], and he called that hall {with his own name }Vê. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, wherein there lay some gleaming drops of the pale dew of {Silpion}[silver light]: it was draped with dark vapours and its floors and columns were of jet. Thither in after days fared the Elves of all the clans who were by illhap slain with weapons or did die of grief for those that were slain - and only so might the Eldar die, and then it was only for a while.
There Mandos spake their doom, and there they waited in the darkness, dreaming of their past deeds, until such time as he appointed when they might VT-EX-14.3{again }be {born into their children}[re-housed], and go forth to laugh and sing again. VT-EX-14.5{To Vê Fui came not much, for she laboured rather at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief.
}VT-EX-14.7{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than Vê, and {she}he too named it{ with her own name}, calling it Fui. Therein before {her}his black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Namo] reads their hearts.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

This is perfect, thank you

[Findegil]

We should more often look into Myths Transformed! I propose we take up these changes:

And the dews of Telperion and the spilth VT-LQ-04 <LQ2{[footnote to the text: meant to indicate that Laurelin is 'founded' on the laburnum. 'jocund spilth of yellow fire' Francis Thompson - who no doubt got the word from Timon of Athens (his vocabulary was largely derived from Elizabethan English)]} of Laurelin Varda let hoard VT-EX-32<editorial addition as well> in great VT-LQ-05 {vats}[wells], like {[struck out: unto] }shining lakes VT-EX-33 <AAm nigh to the Green Mound>, that were to all the land of the Valar as wells of water and of light. VT-EX-34 <AAmThence the Maiar would draw it and bring it to frith and field, even those far removed from {Valmar}[Valimar], so that all regions of Valinor were nourished and waxed ever fairer.>
VT-EX-34.5 <MT; 2; Outline Varda {has}had preserved some of the Primeval Light (her original chief concern in the Great Tale). {The Two Trees are made. The Valar make their resting place and dwellings in Valinor in the West.
}/This she gave to the watering of the Trees. /Now/ therefore/ one of the objects of the Trees (as later of the Jewels) was the healing of the hurts of Melkor, but this could easily have a selfish aspect: the staying of history — not going on with the Tale. This effect it had on the Valar.>
VT-EX-35 <AAm {There in the Guarded Realm they gathered great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; and many others yet fairer they made anew, and}And Valinor became more beautiful even than Middle-earth in the Spring of Arda; and it was blessed and holy, for the {gods}[Valar] dwelt there, and there nought faded nor withered, neither was there any stain upon flower or leaf in that land, nor any corruption or sickness in anything that lived; for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, and for long they were well content, and they came seldom over the mountains to the Outer Lands; and Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Eä.>
VT-EX-36 <Ainulindale §33 Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only in Valinor, as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn. And in the darkness Melkor dwelt, and still often walked abroad, in many shapes of power and fear; and he wielded cold and fire, from the tops of the mountains to the deep furnaces that are beneath them; and whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid to his charge.
§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love. VT-EX-35.5 <MT; 2; Outline They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-earth was left too little tended, and too little protected against Melkor.
Towards the end of the Days of Bliss, the Valar {find}found the tables turned. They are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his evil spirits and monsters; and can only themselves come there secretly and briefly (Oromë and Yavanna mainly).>
§35 And in the midst of the Blessed Realm were the mansions of Aulë, and there he laboured long. For in the making of all things in that land he had the chief part; ...

On a more general note: Then Maiar that cared for Laurelin and later became the guide of the sun was in LT Urwen and Later Urwendi a maiden of Vána. Later she was named Ariën. But in MT she is named Āzi later namend Āri and is the most beautiful of Vardas maidens. In the farther course of that narrative she is then called Árië. I think we should take that last name and connection.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I agree about the name change for Arien. In the second addition, it says that orome and Yavanna came "secretly" but Orome is explicitly said to come blowing his horn and driving all evil things away before him, not secretly.