Beren and Lúthien - Changes needed

[ArcusCalion]

Hey, just finished reading through everything, and I had only 1 question. Why were the two references to the mission of Boldog removed?

[Findegil]

Boldog's special mission was removed because it was never mentioned later. Aiwendils post 37 and me post 39 in this thread have some argument about that.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Elvellon]

Hey Findegil,

I was reading the working doc, and came across this bit:

A vault of topless trees it seemed, {995}
whose trunks of carven stone there stood
like towers of an enchanted wood [1240]
in {magic }fast[ craft] for ever bound,
bearing a roof whose branches wound
in endless tracery of green {1000}
lit by some leaf-emprisoned sheen
of moon and sun, and wrought of gems, [1245]
and each leaf hung on golden stems.

I couldn't find here, or in the private forum, any discussion about the change to line 1241 – unless I missed it, of course!

I don't think the new line "in fast craft for ever bound," works. For one, the Lay is in iambic tetrameter (not uniformly, but close), but this line is now short one syllable. For another, it throws off the stresses. And lastly, here "fast" doesn’t mean “rapid; quick”, but "firm; secure" – as in “fastened.” So, it’s not fast craft, it’s trunks fastened by craft.

Long story short, I think this would work better, both in preserving the stresses and the meaning:

A vault of topless trees it seemed,
whose trunks of carven stone there stood
like towers of an enchanted wood [1240]
{in magic} [in craft were] fast for ever bound,
bearing a roof whose branches wound
in endless tracery of green {1000}
lit by some leaf-emprisoned sheen
of moon and sun, and wrought of gems, [1245]
and each leaf hung on golden stems.

If you're against adding "were," then I think that at the very least, the line should be "in craft fast forever bound" to preserve the meaning of fast.

Edit:

BL-RG-08.5: I agree with Aiwendil that it would be nice to keep these lines. What about...

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle{,} BL-RG-08.5 {as the Gnomes}[with a spark]
{were}[as Noldor] gathered {to their fading homes}[in the dark],
and thronged the long and winding stair
that led to the wide echoing square.

[Aiwendil]

You're quite right about line 1241, and I'm not sure how I missed that before. However, I don't think your proposal works grammatically. "In magic fast forever bound" is an adjective phrase modifying "towers of an enchanted wood"; inserting a verb into it doesn't make sense.

Honestly, I've never been of the mind that every use of the word "magic" must be struck from the text, and my preference here would be to simply retain the original reading.

BL-RG-08.5: I don't know. These lines could work, but they feel a little off to me. I guess we have to weigh re-writing Tolkien's rhymes against cutting out of a few lines of the poem.

I've just stared at the lines for a while again, and still can't come up with a better suggestion.

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

You're quite right about line 1241, and I'm not sure how I missed that before. However, I don't think your proposal works grammatically. "In magic fast forever bound" is an adjective phrase modifying "towers of an enchanted wood"; inserting a verb into it doesn't make sense.

I was thinking of it modifying "trunks of carven stone," but looking at it closer, I see what you mean, and why "were" doesn't work in that case. I think I'm in agreement with you that every use of magic does not need to be removed. I'm also of the opinion that every use of "gods" doesn't need to go either, especially here, where it may involve changing too much. Which brings me to another suggestion to preserve some currently omitted lines:

BL-SL-03:

So would they not that angry day
King Felagund their lord obey,
but sullen murmured that Finrod
nor yet his{ son}[ sire] were as a god.

Since the equivalent line in QS I is "And now they murmured that Finarfin’s son was not as a Vala to command them," it seems to me the easiest fix (short of excision) is to change the mention in the Lay from Finrod nor his son, to Finrod nor his father ("sire" being a word that Tolkien uses more than once in place of "father").

BL-RG-08.5: I don't know. These lines could work, but they feel a little off to me. I guess we have to weigh re-writing Tolkien's rhymes against cutting out of a few lines of the poem.

I share your concern for re-writing, and you're right, it's a little off. But I also worry about cutting out too many groups of lines, which risks messing with the pace of how quickly or slowly Tolkien moves the reader from one moment to the next. So, it seems worth attempting to keep lines if possible.

Here's another possibility, making use of a rhyme that Tolkien is quite fond of:

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle{, as the Gnomes}[ in the gloom]
{were}[as Noldor] gathered to their {fading homes}[doom],
and thronged the long and winding stair
that led to the wide echoing square.

Here's a clean version:

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle in the gloom
as Noldor gathered to their doom,
and thronged the long and winding stair
that led to the wide echoing square.

This image is supported by §129 of Aam, where Tolkien uses "gloom" to describe the atmosphere at this very moment: "The lamp of the Mindon burned pale in the gloom."

One might be able to write a couplet that rhymes "in hand they bore" (meaning the torches) with "Noldor," but at the moment I'm not seeing it.

[Aiwendil]

BL-SL-03: While I don't necessarily think that every instance of "god" used of the Valar must be excised, I think its use here from the mouth of an Elf is sufficient reason to delete this couplet.

BL-RG-08.5: I've been racking my brain trying to work out a rhyme for either "... did start and twinkle, as that folk" or "... did start and twinkle, as that kin". If we were OK with an archaic placement of "in" following its noun, we could do:

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as {the Gnomes}[that kin]
were gathered {to their fading homes}[their white city in],
and thronged the long and winding stair
that led to the wide echoing square.

But that may be too archaic; I can't think of anywhere Tolkien uses that construction.

With "folk", we could try:

There countless torches fitfully
did start and twinkle, as {the Gnomes}[that folk]
were gathered {to their fading homes}[under twilight's cloak],
and thronged the long and winding stair
that led to the wide echoing square.

I kind of like this one, except that I'm hesitant to add in a metaphor like that that's not in the original.

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

BL-SL-03: While I don't necessarily think that every instance of "god" used of the Valar must be excised, I think its use here from the mouth of an Elf is sufficient reason to delete this couplet.

Being one of the "songs of Númenor," I haven't been inclined to think of anything written here as strictly "from the mouth of an Elf." We're reading a Mannish text, and we know Men thought of the Valar as gods, right? (Apologies if I'm retreading settled ground. I'm doing my best to digest 20+ years of debate on these ideas split over dozens of threads.)

BL-EX-06: "lay white beneath on the dark stones" looks like a transcription error. My copy has "lay white beneath on the dank stones"

BL-EX-10: A fantastic bit of work here, but a few things don't sit quite right for me. Don't get me wrong, the effort that was put into the Lay by everyone involved is nothing short of brilliant. I'm not here to step on any toes, just to share some grist for the mill. In that spirit, here is my suggestion:

But lastly, ere he bade farewell,
spoke Finrod: 'Celegorm the fell,
I say, by sight this hour received,
no Silmaril shall be retrieved
by thou nor any kin or friend,
for ever unto world’s end.
And this indeed that we now seek
will be delivered from the reek,
but never to your hands will fall.
Nay, shall your oath devour all
of Fëanor’s sons, and deliver then
to another the bride-price of Lúthien.

My main goals were as follows: to put "Celegorm the fell' and the "sight that is given" back into Finrod's mouth; to replace "Jewel" with "Silmaril"; to remove "in vain you swore", since the oath is not mentioned twice in GA; to find a more natural line than "shall come from 'neath the triple peak"; to get rid of the two nearby shall's; to end on "Lúthien."

The usage of "reek" here is the Old-English noun form, as in "delivered from the noxious fumes."

BL-RG-22: How about:

Yet not all unavailing were {2215}
{the}[Finrod's] spells{ of Felagund}; for {Thû}[Sauron knew] [2455]
{neither}[not] their names nor purpose {knew}[true].

BL-EX-10.5: I took a stab at including Celebrimbor's renunciation:

‘We will remember it,’ they said,
and turned upon their heels, and sped,
saddled their horses, trussed their gear,
and went with hound and bow and spear,
BL-EX-10.5 but alone; for none would go,
perceiving evil would follow
the curse that heavy lay therein.
At that time, the son of Curufin,
Celebrimbor, rose and disclaimed
his father’s deeds; and he remained
in Nargothrond. At last they spurred
their horses north, and spoke no word
but sounded horns, and rode away
like wind at end of stormy day.

There is a missing bit here (bolded), which needs to be added back in:

There Curufin and Celegorm {2985}
in sudden tumult like the wind [3275]
rode up. The hooves of horses dinned
loud on the earth. In rage and haste
thus madly eastward they now raced,