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Old 09-13-2017, 02:50 PM   #1
Findegil
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One short answer, because I found it just now:
It is Ungoliant since we find in thus in LotR.

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Old 09-17-2017, 03:27 PM   #2
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OS-MT-07.1: I think we have to eliminate the years counting at the beginning of OS-MT-07.
Quote:
OS-MT-07 <GA 1330 §26 And ere long OS-MT-07.1{(in the year 1330 according to the annals that were made in Doriath)} the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow.
OS-03: I think here we should keep Melkor and the retelling of the naming.

OS-MT-03.1: ‘In this year’ does not go, since we do not have the year number in front like in GA. Therefore I think we could use Christopher Tolkiens take at it.
OS.MT-03.2 As Of Dwarves and Men we learn that the dwarves of the Ered Luin awoke in the North of that Mountain chain not farther East.
Quote:
OS-MT-03 <GA 1250 §19 OS-MT-03.1{In this year}<Sil77 It came to pass during the second age of the captivity of Melkor that> the Norn-folk came first over the mountains into Beleriand. This people the {Noldor after}[Sindar] named the Naugrim, whom some Men call Dwarves. Their most ancient dwellings were OS-MT-03.2{far to the East}[in the North], but they had delved for themselves great halls and mansions, …
OS-MT-03.2: We already cannibalised Concerning the Dwarves. I in my opinion paragraph 6 belongs here, rather than when the Noldor meet the Dwarves.
Quote:
§20 Nonetheless they could understand no word of the tongue of the Naugrim, which to their ears was cumbrous and unlovely OS-MT-03.2{; and few ever of the Eldar have achieved the mastery of it}. <LQ; Concerning the Dwarves §6 The father-tongue of the Dwarves Aulë himself devised for them, and their languages have thus no kinship with those of the Quendi. The Dwarves do not gladly teach their tongue to those of alien race; and in use they have made it harsh and intricate, so that of those few whom they have received in full friendship fewer still have learned it well. But they themselves learn swiftly other tongues, and in converse they use as they may the speech of Elves and Men with whom they deal. Yet in secret they use their own speech only, and that (it is said) is slow to change; so that even their realms and houses that have been long and far sundered may to this day well understand one another. In ancient days the Naugrim dwelt in many mountains of Middle-earth, and there they met mortal Men (they say) long ere the Eldar knew them; whence it comes that of the tongues of the Easterlings many show kinship with Dwarf-speech rather than with the speeches of the Elves.[Footnote to the text: Thus the {Lammas}[Lhammas].]> {But}So the Dwarves were swift to learn (after a fashion), ...
OS-06: Yes, I think we should put parts of this Note in. The first much earlier at the end of §30:
Quote:
… In that region the forests in after days were tall and green, and the people of Denethor there dwelt warily and seldom seen, because of their raiment of the color of leaves; and they were called therefore the Green-elves. OS-MT-09.5 <GA, Note on the ‘Guets Elves’ {the}The Nandor had turned away, never seen the Sea or even Osse, and had become virtually Avari. They had also picked up various Avari before they came back west to Ossiriand.>
§31 Of the long years of peace …
At the place marked with OS-06 I would add:
Quote:
… And many went north and entered the guarded realm of Thingol and were merged with his folk. OS-06 <GA, Note on the ‘Guets Elves’ In the event they did not mingle happily with the Teleri of Doriath, and so dwelt mostly in the small land Eglamar, Arthorien under their own chief. Some of them were "darkhearted", though this did not necessarily appear, except under strain or provocation.{'} {'}The chief of the "Guest-elves", as they were called, was given a permanent place in Thingol's council.>
§40 And when Thingol came again to Menegroth …
OS-05: I would change that. It is the ‘year of the Valar’ that we have to avoid:
Quote:
or by spirit, or by vision in dream, after the death of the Trees and the hiding of Valinor. OS-05 {In this same year of the Valar (but some}Some seven years after (in the later reckoning of time) Fëanor came over Sea in the white ships of the Teleri, and landed in the Firth of Drengist, and there burned the ships at Losgar.>
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Old 09-18-2017, 12:09 AM   #3
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OS-MT-07.1: Why must it be eliminated? It is not involved in the difficulties in relating the lengths of the Years of the Trees and the Years of the Sun, so I do not see the difficulty.

OS-03: Why? It is said in the Darkening of Valinor chapter that he will be referred to as Morgoth thenceforth.

OS-MT-03.2: This is in reference to all Dwarves though, not just the Blue Mountains ones. As Durin is the eldest, he did indeed awake further east, and his mansions are said to be in Gundabad.

OS-MT-3.2: agreed.

OS-06: Agreed.

OS-05 (07): agreed.
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Old 09-18-2017, 04:19 PM   #4
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OS-MT-07.1: When we consider a change in the relation between Valian Year and Sun Year possibly occurred, then what would Tolkien have changed? The time that elapsed between the events recorded in the Annals or the dates of the Annals? Since we cannot say yeah or no we should act safely and skip such dates.

OS-03: Because what Tolkien did do here is exactly retelling the naming of Melkor as Morgoth. And I thought that in this case the change is unnecessary.

OS-MT-03.2: Since it is in reference to all Dwarves ‘east’ would only be true for a part of them in the new conception found in Of Dwarves and Men. In the old conception it is true for all Dwarves that their fathers awoke in the east. Therefore I think the only think that can be safely said about all the places of the awkening of the Dwarves is that they were in the north.

OS-MT-03.2: {; and few … : Sorry, I doubled the marker number! We will rename this change to OS-MT-03.5.

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Old 07-04-2024, 09:02 PM   #5
Elvellon
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A couple contradictions I noticed, which I've underlined for emphasis. First up:

Quote:
§28 Therefore Thingol bethought {[}him{]} of arms, which before his folk had not needed
Does this not contradict this bit of text from Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor a few chapters ago?

Quote:
§52a .... Now the Quendi had possessed weapons in Middle-earth, but not of their own devising. They had been made by Aulë and sent as gifts by the hand of Oromë, when it became known to the Valar that the Quendi were beset by prowling evils that had discovered the places of their dwelling beside Cuiviénen; and more were sent later for the defence of the Eldar upon the Great March to the shores of the Sea.
Also this statement in The Coming of Denethor:

Quote:
.... of the wanderings of that people, the Nandor, little is now known. Some, it is said, dwelt age-long in the woods of the Vale of the Great River, some came at last to the mouths of Anduin, and there dwelt by the Sea ....
is contradicted later in the same paragraph by this:

Quote:
OS-MT-09.5 <GA, Note on the ‘Guest Elves’ {the}The Nandor had turned away, never seen the Sea or even Ossë, ...
You could perhaps change "Nandor" here to "Green-elves", since it is only said that "some" of the Nandor dwelt by the Sea, and we can infer that the group who became the Green-elves were not among those who "turned aside and wandered southwards".

Last edited by Elvellon; 07-05-2024 at 03:37 PM. Reason: Added bit about the Nandor.
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Old 07-15-2024, 05:57 AM   #6
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OS-MT-07.2 "§28 Therefore Thingol ...": I agree that this is contradiction. Thank you for the catch! I would ammend in this way:
Quote:
§28 Therefore Thingol bethought {[}him{]} of arms, which before his folk had not needed OS-MT07.2<editrorial addition based on Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor §52a since the Great March>, and these at first the Naugrim smithied for him. ...
OS-MT-09.5: Again a good catch! But here I would simply change my edditing to make it moer specific:
Quote:
... because of their raiment of the color of leaves; and they were called therefore the Green-elves. OS-MT-09.5 <GA, Note on the ‘Guest Elves’ {the}These Nandor had turned away, never seen the Sea or even Osse, and had become virtually Avari. They had also picked up various Avari before they came back west to Ossiriand.>
Instead off "The Nandor" in general we are now talking only of "these Nandor, that followed Denethor into Beleriand".

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