2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[ArcusCalion]

To respond to your points:

1. Kementari is used bc in the Lost Tales text, while her proper name is Yavanna, she is referred to often as Palurien, which was a title later replaced (in supremacy at least) by Kementari. (sidenote, Palurien is a valid title for Yavanna in Quenya, and I have contemplated lobbying to keep it in, but referring to one person by three different names throughout the narrative would be toooo much haha). Tolkien loves using titles to refer to someone rather than their formal name, especially when they are of extreme importance.

2. Interesting, I cannot find it either. Findegil, are we crazy? Also i agree that the second addition doesn't add any new info, and also is somewhat awkward in tone, and I do not see the need for it.

3. We are not including the children of the Valar at all, as this idea was abandoned by Tolkien.

[Findegil]

Yavanna Kementári: Consistence is nice but done to utmost it will become boring. It is not uncommon in Tolkiens works that important characters have more than one name, e.g.: Melkor/Morgoth/Baugron/Alcar; Finrod Felagund; Húrin Thalion, Beleg Cúthalion, Túrin/Agawaren/Mormegil/Turambar, Mairon/Sauron/Gorthauer/Annatar/The Necromancer to name just a few that come immediately to my mind.

§38 And in that time of dark Yavanna ... foreboding the warath to come.>

That seems to be a example of my bad editing (or rather not catching that failure)! It is from the Ainulindalë D. But the passage was moved from Version C §34 to this place after §37. In HoMe 10 it is nominated ‘[§34]’ and we should probably stick to that.

VT-EX-35.7: The ‘secretly and briefly’ visits of the Valar. I agree that as it stand this would contradict Orome blowing his horn. Sincer we are talking about an outline versus more than one full story texts, I assume we should change the outline, but as minimalistic as possible. So I suppose:

§34 But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, and because of the beauty and bliss of that realm they came seldom now to Middle-earth, but gave to the Land beyond the Mountains their chief care and love. VT-EX-35.5 <MT; 2; Outline They became more and more enamoured of Valinor, and went there more often and stayed there longer. Middle-earth was left too little tended, and too little protected against Melkor.
Towards the end of the Days of Bliss, the Valar {find}found the tables turned. They are driven out of Middle-earth by Melkor and his evil spirits and monsters; and can only themselves come there secretly VT-EX-35.7{and}[or] briefly (Oromë and Yavanna mainly).>

Yavanna and Aule stayed probably loner but they worked in secret, Orome came for hunting and open, but he stayed only briefly (implicit because otherwise Melkor’s agents would have gathered to fight him).

About the children of the Valar: They are removed or changed to Maiar or Valar of their own right. So both roles of Nonore and Fionwe are taken up by Eonwe. As well Orome is no longer the son of Yavanna.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

1. Palurien does sound really pretty to my ears, but I agree that three names is a bit too much. As long as when we first introduce her we use both names, I'm OK with using Yavanna and Kementari interchangeably.

[Aiwendil]

Here is my new draft for chapter 2. I have kept most of Findegil's edit numbers, though in some cases where the edit has changed significantly, I've added a distinguishing letter; also, in cases where I've followed my own previous draft, I retain my edit numbers.

Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{to be deleted} = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
underlined = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion

VT-LQ-00.5 <2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees>

VT-EX-01b <AAm Thus ended the Spring of Arda. And the dwelling of the Valar upon Almaren was utterly destroyed, and {the gods}[they] had no abiding place upon the face of the earth. . . . upon the borders of the [ancient] world{; for its west . . . and beyond were the Walls of {the} Night}. VT-EX-02 <LT Then said Manwë: ‘Now will we make a dwelling speedily and a bulwark against evil.’ So they fared over {Arvalin}[Avathar] and saw a wide open space beyond, reaching for unknown leagues{ even to the Outer Seas}.> VT-LQ-01.5 <LQ But on the further side lay the Outer Sea, which encircle{s}[d] the Kingdom of Arda, and {is}[was] called by the Elves VT-LQ-02 {Vaiya}[Ekkaia]. How wide {is}[was] that sea none {know}[knew] but the {gods}[Valar], and beyond it {are}[were] the Walls of the World to fence out the Void and the Eldest Darkness.>

VT-EX-03b <LT There, said Aulë, would be a place well suited to great building and to a fashioning of realms of delight; wherefore the Valar and all their folk first gathered the most mighty rocks and stones from {Arvalin}[Avathar] and reared therewith> <AAm upon the shores of the Sea {they raised} the Pelóri, the Mountains of Aman, highest upon earth. {And above all the mountains of the Pelóri was that height which was called Taniquetil,}> <LT Aulë indeed it was himself who laboured {for seven ages} at Manwë’s bidding in the piling of {Taniquetil} the greatest mountain,> <AAm upon whose summit Manwë set his throne before the doors of the domed halls of Varda{.},> <LT and the world rumbled in the gloom and [Melkor] heard the noises of their labour.>VT-LQ-02.5 <LQ Taniquetil the Elves name that holy mountain, and Oiolossë Everlasting Whiteness, and Elerrína Crowned with Stars, and many names beside. But the Sindar spoke of it in their later tongue as Amon Uilos.>

VT-EX-03.1 <LT By reason of their great masonry {is}[was] {Erumani}[Avathar] now VT-EX-03.2{very broad and }bare and . . . but the Mountains of Valinor {are}[were] rugged and of impregnable height. Seeing at length that these towered mightily between Valinor and the world the {Gods}[Valar] drew breath; . . . At last he {says}said: ‘It is ill working in this gloom, and 'twas an evil deed of {Melko}[Melkor]'s that brought to ruin those fair lamps.’

But Varda answering said: . . . and with these he got him back to Valinor. VT-EX-04.1 There was all the light poured into two great {cauldrons}[wells] that Aulë fashioned in the gloom against his return, and those are called [Cululin] and [Silindirin].>

VT-EX-04.2<AAm But behind the walls of the Pelóri the Valar established their mansions and their domain in that region which is called Valinor. There in the Guarded Realm they {gathered}[had] great store of light and all the fairest things that were saved from the ruin; . . . and it was blessed and holy, for the {gods}[Servants of Ilúvatar] dwelt there . . .

Therefore the Valar and all their folk were joyful again, . . . that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in [Eä].

And it came to pass that, after Valinor was full-wrought and the mansions of the Valar were established and their gardens and woodlands were arrayed, VT-EX-04.3{the Valar built their city.} <AAm* in the midst of the plain west of the Pelóri Aulë and his people built for them a fair city. That city they named Valimar the Blessed.> VT-LT-03.5<LT No metal and no stone, nor any wood of mighty trees was spared to {their}its raising. {Their}[Its] roofs were of gold and {their}[its] floors silver and their doors of polished bronze; {they were}[it was] lifted with spells and their stones were bound with magic.> And before its western gate there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.

Then Yavanna and Nienna came to that Green Mound; and Yavanna hallowed it, . . . But Nienna thought in silence, and watered the mould with tears. VT-EX-15.5 [footnote to the text: <AAm* footnote For it is said that even in the Music Nienna took little part, but listened intent to all that she heard. Therefore she was rich in memory, and farsighted, perceiving how the themes should unfold in the Tale of Arda. But she had little mirth, and all her love was mingled with pity, grieving for the harms of the world and for the things that failed of fulfilment. So great was her ruth, it is said, that she could not endure to the end of the Music. Therefore she has not the hope of Manwë. He is more farseeing; but Pity is the heart of Nienna.]> Then all the Valar were gathered together to hearken to the song of Yavanna; and the mound was in the midst of the Ring of Doom before the gates of {Valmar}[Valimar], and the Valar sat round about in silence upon their thrones of council, and their folk were set before their feet. And as the {gods}[Valar] watched, behold! upon the mound there> VT-LQ-03.5 <LQ {§15 From the earth there} came forth two slender shoots; and silence was over all the world in that hour, nor was there any other sound save the slow chanting of {Palúrien}[Kementári]. Under her song two fair trees uprose and grew. Of all things which {the gods [> }she{]} made they have most renown, and about their fate all the tales of the Elder World are woven. The one had VT-EX-16 <LT {It had} a bark of tender white that gleamed like pearls and it grew VT-EX-17{even as }swiftly VT-EX-18{as had Laurelin, and as it grew the glory of Laurelin abated and its blossom shone less, till that tree glowed only gently as in sleep: but, behold, the other}, and waxed now to a great statureVT-EX-19{ even as lofty as Laurelin}, and its stock was VT-EX-20{yet more }shapely andVT-EX-21{ more} slender, and its rind like silk, but its boughs above were VT-EX-22{thicker and more tangled and its twigs denser}thick and tangled and its twigs dens, and they put forth masses of bluish green leaves like spearheads{.}> {leaves of dark green} that beneath were as shining silver{;}. VT-EX-23<LT Then did the Valar stare in wonder, but {Palúrien}[Kementári] said: ‘Not yet has this tree ceased its growing’, and behold as she spake it blossomed, and its blossoms did not hang in clusters but were like separate flowers growing each on fine stems that swung together> {and he bore white blossoms} like unto a cherry-tree, were it surpassing great and fair; VT-EX-24<LT and they were as silver and pearls and glittering stars and burnt with a white light; and it seemed as if the tree's heart throbbed, and its radiance wavered thereto waxing and waning.> {and}And from each of his countless flowers a dew of silver light was ever falling, but the earth beneath was dappled with the dancing shadows of his fluttering leaves. Light like liquid silver distilled from its bole and dripped to earth, and it shed a very great illumination about the plain, {yet was that not as wide as the light of the tree of gold,} and by reason also of its great leaves and of the throb of its inward life it cast a continual flutter of shadows among the pools of its brightness, very clear and black; whereat Lóriën could not contain his joy, and even Mandos smiled. But Lóriën said: ‘Lo! I will give this tree a name and call it ‘Silpion’, and that has ever been one of its {name}names since.>

<LQ The other VT-EX-25 <LT {Behold from that place that had been watered from Kulullin} rose as a slender shoot, and from its bark pale gold effulgence poured; VT-EX-25.5 <LT and as it grew the {glory}[sheen] of [Silpion] abated and its blossom shone less, till that tree glowed only gently as in sleep:> yet did that other plant grow apace so that in seven hours . . . and golden buds swelled from all the twigs and lesser branches, and from these burst leaves of a rich {green whose edges shone.}> {bore leaves of a} young green like the new-opened beech; their edges were of glittering gold. VT-EX-26<LT Already was the light that that tree gave wide and fair, but as the Valar gazed it put forth blossom in exceeding great profusion, so that all its boughs were hidden by long swaying clusters of gold flowers like a myriad hanging lamps of flame,> {Flowers swung upon her branches like clusters of yellow flame,} formed each to a glowing horn that spilled a golden rain upon the ground; and from the blossom of that tree there came forth warmth{ and a great light}.> VT-EX-26.5 <LT {and}And {Kemi}[Yavanna] said: ‘Let it be called Laurelin, for the brightness of its blossom and the music of its dew{,}.’>

VT-EX-27 <AAm From those Trees there came forth a great light, . . . and all that walked in that light were glad at heart.> VT-EX-28 <LT Then did the {Gods}[Valar] praise {Vána and Palúrien}[Kementári and Nienna] and rejoice in the light, saying to them: ‘Lo, {this is a}these are very fair {tree}trees indeed,{ and must have a name unto itself,}’>

<LQ Telperion the one was also called in Valinor, and Silpion, and Ninquelote, and many names in song beside; {but the Gnomes name him [> }but in the Sindarin tongue he was called{]} Galathilion. Laurelin {was the other [> }the other was{]} called, and Malinalda, and [C]ulurien, and many other names; {but the Gnomes name her [> }but the Sindar named her{]} Galadloriel. [footnote to the text: Other names of Laurelin {among the Noldor [> }in the Sindarin tongue{] are [>} were{]} Glewellin (which is the same as Laurelin, song of gold), Lasgalen green of leaf, and Melthinorn tree of gold; and her image in Gondolin was named Glingal. {[Struck out: Of old among the Noldor] }The Elder Tree was named also Silivros {glimmering [> }sparkling{]} rain, Celeborn tree of silver, and Nimloth pale blossom. But in after days Galathilion the Less was the name of the White Tree of Túna, and his seedling was named Celeborn in Eressëa, and Nimloth in Númenor, the gift of the Eldar. The image of Telperion that Turgon made in Gondolin was Belthil. Quoth {Pengolod}[Pengolodh].]>

VT-EX-30 <LT Then {Palúrien}[Kementári] arose and said to the {Gods}[Valar]: ‘Gather ye now all the light that drips in liquid shape from this {fair}[golden] tree and store it in [Cululin], and let it fare thence but very sparingly. Behold, this tree, when the twelve hours of its fullest light are past, will wane again, and thereat will {Laurelin}[Silpion] {blaze}[shine] forth once more; but that it may not be exhausted water it ever gently from the {cauldron}[well] of {Kulullin}[Silindirin] at the hour when {Silpion}[Laurelin] grows dim, but to {Silpion}[Laurelin] do ye in the same manner, pouring back the gathered light from deep {Silindrin}[Cululin] at every waning of the tree of {gold}silver. Light is the sap of these trees and their sap is light!’

And in these words did she signify that . . . and beyond that which their roots sucked in; but VT-EX-30.1{the {Gods}[Valar]}[Varda] hearkened to her bidding, and {Vána} caused one of her own maidens, even {Urwen}[Árië], to care ever for this task of watering Laurelin, while {Lóriën}[she] bade Silmo, a youth {he} loved by Lóriën, to be ever mindful of the refreshing of Silpion.>

<LQ In seven hours the glory of each tree waxed to full . . . the {gods}[Valar] reckoned not into the tale of hours, but named it the Opening Hour, . . . And each day of the {Gods}[Valar] in {Valinor [> }Aman{]} contained twelve hours, and ended with the second mingling of the lights, in which Laurelin was waning but Telperion was waxing. VT-LQ-04b And the dews of Telperion and the spilth of Laurelin {Varda let hoard}were hoarded in the great {vats}[wells] Cululin and Silindirin, like {[struck out: unto]} shining lakes, that were to all the land of the Valar as wells of water and of light.> VT-EX-34<AAm Thence the Maiar would draw it and bring it to frith and field, even those far removed from Valmar, so that all regions of Valinor were nourished and waxed ever fairer.>

VT-EX-36b <QS77 But as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Iluvatar for the coming of the Firstborn, Middle-earth lay in a twilight beneath the stars that Varda had wrought in the ages forgotten of her labours in Ea.> <Ainulindalë D And in the darkness Melkor dwelt, and still often walked abroad, . . . whatsoever was cruel or violent or deadly in those days is laid to his charge. VT-EX-36.5 <LQ2 The chief of his fortresses was at Utumno in the North of Middle-earth; but he made also a fortress and armoury not far from the northwestern shores of the Sea, to resist any assault from Aman. This was called Angband and was commanded by Sauron, lieutenant of Melkor.>

But in Valinor the Valar dwelt with all their kin and folk, . . . And the Noldor it was who achieved the invention of gems, VT-EX-37{which were not in the world before their coming; }and the fairest of all gems were the Silmarils, and they are lost.

VT-LT-04<LT Separate from {these}[Valimar] and bordering upon the open vale . . .

In this court were some of all the trees . . . and were gathered by [Kementári’s] maids for her feasting and her lord’s.>

But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, . . . standing upon the margin of the Seas. VT-LT-05<LT That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called ilwë that is above the white and grey. This web did Aulë and his wife contrive, but Varda spangled it with stars, and Manwë dwelt thereunder[.]> Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew . . . and he is King of the world of {gods}[Valar] and elves and men, the vicegerent of Ilúvatar, and the chief defence against the evil of Melkor.

VT-LT-06 <LT Lórien {too} dwelt far away, and his hall was great and dimly lit and had wide gardens. The place of his dwelling he called Lórien, which Aulë made of mists gathered beyond [Avathar] upon the Shadowy Seas. . . . They were full of labyrinths and mazes, for [Kementári] had given Lórien great wealth of yewtrees and cedars, . . . There too grew the poppies glowing redly in the dusk, and those the [Valar] called fumellar the flowers of sleep—and Lórien used them much in his enchantments.>

VT-LT-07<LT Otherwise was the mind of Tulkas, and he dwelt amidmost of Val[i]mar. Most youthful is he and strong of limb and lusty, and for that is he named [Astaldo] who loveth games and twanging of bows and boxing, wrestling, running, and leaping, and songs that go with a swing and a toss of a well-filled cup. VT-LT-08b {Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked as is Makar, albeit there are none of Valar or Úvanimor (who are monsters, giants, and ogres) that do not fear the sinews of his arm and the buffet of his iron-clad fist, when he has cause for wrath.} His was a house of mirth and revelry; . . . and [Kementári] had planted it with spells that it was always green and smooth. There danced she among her maidens as long as Laurelin was in bloom, for is she not greater in the dance than Vána herself?> VT-LT08.5 < In Val[i]mar too dwelt Noldorin known long ago as Salmar, playing now upon his harps and lyres, now sitting beneath Laurelin and raising sweet music with an instrument of the bow>

VT-LT-09<LT Ossë too had a great house, and dwelt therein whenso a conclave of the Valar was held or did he grow weary of the noise of the waves upon his seas. [Uinen] and the [Eärni] brought thousands of pearls for its building, and its floors were of sea-water, and its tapestries like the glint of the silver skins of fishes, and it was roofed with foam.>

But Ulmo was alone, and he abode not in Valinor, nor ever came thither unless there was need for a great council, when VT-LT-10 <LT he would go as guest to the halls of Manwë>: he dwelt from the beginning of Arda in the Outer Ocean, . . .

And in that time of dark Yavanna also was unwilling utterly to forsake the outer lands; . . . they must surely wage ere the coming of the Firstborn.

VT-LT-11{And}[Now] Oromë tamer of beasts <LT {Now Oromë} had a vast domain and it was beloved by him{, and no less by Palúrien his mother.} Behold, the groves of trees {they}[he and Yavanna] planted upon the plain of Valinor and even upon the foothills of the mountains have no compare on Earth. . . . but these strayed never into the gardens of the {Gods}[Valar], yet were they in peace and had no fear, for beasts of prey dwelt not among them, nor did Oromë fare to hunting in Valinor. Much indeed as he loves those realms yet> he would ride too at whiles . . . and even the heart of Melkor himself was shaken, foreboding the wrath to come. b]VT-LT-11.5[/b] <LT But in Valmar his halls are wide and low, . . . Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring.>

VT-LT-12<LT So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that Námo and [Vairë] his wife {of tears} might not endure to stay there long, . . . that rise here again almost to their height nigh [Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall. Wherefore, that all the [Valar] might be housed to their liking, . . . and all that deep abode is known to [Valar] and Elves as Mandos. There in a sable hall sat Námo{, and he called that hall with his own name Vê}. It was lit only with a single vessel placed in the centre, . . . until such time as he appointed when they might again {be born into their children}[take body], and go forth to laugh and sing again.>

VT-LT-13<LT {for she}[But Nienna] laboured {rather} at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears . . . The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[Mandos]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui.} Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.>

VT-EX-01b, -EX-02, -LQ-01.5, -LQ-02: This is very similar to Findegil’s version, but I have edited it slightly differently.

VT-LQ-01.5: I've changed the present tense of LQ to past to match the language of AAm. Particularly in view of the addition of "ancient" in the typescript AAm*, it must be the case that this describes the world as it was then, but not after the fall of Numenor.

VT-EX-03b: Here I mix LT with AAm, chiefly in order to mention the name ‘Pelóri’, and to get the detail that Manwë’s throne is atop Taniquetil. The latter point, though, may not be needed here, since Manwe’s dwelling is described in full at the end of the chapter. I also move the detail of the world rumbling in the gloom to what I feel is a more natural place.

VT-EX-03.1, -03.2: I remove a historical present here, but otherwise this is almost identical to Findegil’s version.

VT-EX-04.1: Here I change the “cauldrons” to “wells” and use the updated names “Cululin” and “Silindirin”.

VT-EX-04.2: Here I return to AAm, since we are using putting the descriptions of the Valar’s dwellings at the end of the chapter. The change of ‘gods’ to ‘Servants of Ilúvatar’ is from the typescript AAm*

VT-EX-04.3: A change from AAm*.

VT-LT-03.5: Although the description of the Valar’s mansions is saved for later, this seems the best place for these details of Valimar.

VT-EX-15.5: I think this footnote should be used (as a footnote) in our version.

VT-LQ-03.5: This is as in Findegil’s version; I just supply an editing number here for the switch to LQ.

VT-EX-16 through -23: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-24: I keep Lorien’s naming of Silpion immediately after the description of Silpion’s growth.

VT-EX-25: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-25.5: In Findegil’s draft, the re-ordering of the growth of the Trees means that we don’t say that Telperion’s light decreases while Laurelin is growing; but Yavanna’s speech following this assumes that it has. I’ve tried to rectify this by taking the passage in LT telling that Laurelin waned as Silpion waxed, and simply changing the name of the Tree. But because “glory” seems more apt for golden Laurelin, I’ve changed it to the “sheen” of Silpion.

VT-EX-26: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-26.5: Due to the order of the growth of the Trees being reversed, I’ve moved Yavanna’s naming of Laurelin to before the Valar praise her work, so that they are now praising both Trees at the same time.

VT-EX-27: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-EX-28: Because the Trees have both now been named, the Valar do not request names for them.

VT-EX-29: This was moved to become part of VT-EX-24

VT-EX-30: I’ve moved Yavanna’s speech here to before the narrator’s explanation of the waxing and waning of the Trees. Since the narrator’s explanation is fuller and more detailed, this arrangement seems to me to alleviate the feeling of redundancy.

The best solution I could come up with for the problem here with the Trees’ order being reversed was to simply flip the names of the Trees (and the wells) in Yavanna’s speech. So now that Laurelin has just bloomed, she says that in twelve hours it will wane and Silpion will bloom again. Consequently, I also changed ‘fair tree’ to ‘golden tree’, ‘tree of gold’ to ‘tree of silver’, and ‘blaze forth’ (which seems an appropriate description for Laurelin but not Telperion) to ‘shine forth’.

VT-EX-30.1: In LQ and AAm, the hoarding of the light that spills from the Trees is attributed to Varda. I struggled to reconcile this with Yavanna’s speech here (which we all agreed we’d like to keep). The solution I’ve come up with may not be perfect, but I think it is reasonable: Yavanna tells the Valar that the light should be gathered, and the Trees watered from it; but then it is Varda, rather than Vána and Lóriën, who bids the Maiar do so.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-EX-34: I found this bit tricky, and I’m not sure I’m happy with what I’ve come up with. The point is that we have already told about the great wells and that Varda bade the light be stored and watered there, but we still want the statement that the Maiar drew from the wells and brought the light to other places in Valinor. I could not find a placement for this that is not at least a little awkward, but I think this works decently.

VT-EX-36b: Here we switch back to the Ainulindalë for the final part of the chapter. In the Ainulindalë, this section begins with ‘Thus it was that the Earth lay darkling again, save only inValinor, as the ages drew on to the hour appointed by Ilúvatar for the coming of the Firstborn.’ In the new context the ‘thus’ has lost its antecedent, so we need some editorial alteration; I therefore took Christopher Tolkien’s alteration of this sentence from QS77.

VT-EX-36.5: This is the LQ footnote telling of the making of Angband, which we agreed to use here.

VT-EX-37: As in Findegil’s draft.

VT-LT-04: Details of Aulë’s dwelling from LT inserted after the Ainulindalë passage describing him.

VT-LT-05: Details of Manwë’s dwelling inserted after telling that it is on Taniquetil

VT-LT-06: In LT, the description of Lóriën’s dwelling follows the statement that Ulmo does not live in Valinor, but in the Ainulindalë, the three who gave thought to the outer lands are spoken of in sequence: Ulmo, Yavanna, Oromë; so I have separated the description of Lóriën and placed it here. I also remove the end of this section, which describes Silindrin being in Lóriën, since in our version it is near the green mound.

I’m a little uncertain about whether the old word ‘fumellar’ is valid in later Quenya, but I don’t see anything obviously wrong with it.

VT-LT-07: Here I put the description of Tulkas and his dwelling.

VT-LT-08b: I’ve deleted the passage that refers to Makar.

VT-LT-08.5: Of the minor Ainur mentioned at this point in LT, we know that Salmar still exists in the later mythology, though Amillo/Ómar and Nielqui seem to be gone. Therefore I’ve retained the statement about Salmar, but since it is now just one sentence I’ve merged it with the previous paragraph.

We could, of course, keep Ómar and Nielqui. I see that there was some discussion of Omar between Findegil and ArcusCalion, but I’m not sure if a decision was reached.

VT-LT-09: The passage about Ossë. It does seem a little awkward to me to include a description of Ossë’s dwelling among those of the Valar (of course, in LT Ossë was a Vala). But even though he was downgraded to become a Maia, he is still one of the more important Maiar, so I think it’s all right.

VT-LT-10: There is not much from LT to add here concerning Ulmo, but the one detail that he is a guest of Manwë while in Valinor is worth including.

VT-LT-11: The LT description of the forests of Valinor seems to fit here. In LT it is said that Oromë and Palurien (there his mother) planted these forests together. I debated changing this so that the forests were planted solely by Yavanna, but in the end I think it’s fine to suppose that Oromë and Yavanna worked together to plant them, even if no longer as a form of mother-son bonding.

VT-LT-11.5: The description of Oromë’s halls in Valinor seems to fit best here, after telling of his riding in Middle-earth.

VT-LT-12: Here I put the dwelling of Mandos and Vairë (who is now his wife instead of Nienna, and consequently not a lady ‘of tears’). I also alter the statement about Elves being reborn to match the later conception of re-embodiment.

VT-LT-13: With Nienna now the sister of Mandos, it seems reasonable to put the description of her dwelling immediately after his.

[ArcusCalion]

Here are my comments for the draft proposed. Like the "Of the Beginning of Time" draft, I am very impressed at the overall improvement in flow and quality, and have some comments.

VT-EX-01b: is the addition of "ancient" really necessary? when this was written the round world numenoran cataclysm had already entered the mythos, so the ancient word was implied already.

VT-LQ-01.5: I actually realize now that this contradicts the addition of the "vast regions of Ea" into the Cosmological structure with Ainulindale D and later AAm. Should this be changed from "Void and Eldest Darkness" to "Vast Spaces of Ea"?

VT-EX-03.1: In this version, the "Mountains of Valinor" and just "Valinor" occur before the introduction of the name Valinor as the land of the Valar. Is this a problem?

VT-LT-03.5: This is awkward. Maybe instead of changing "their" to "its" at every occurrence, just change the first "Their roofs" to "The roofs of its buildings were .." and leave the "their"s afterwards. Makes it smoother.

VT-EX-30.1: Arie is said to be a Maia of Vana, so this wording cannot stay this way. Maybe

.... to her bidding, and caused one of {her}[the maidens of Vána], even {Urwen}[Arie] ....

VT-LQ-04b: Nowhere in this passage does it say that the wells are near Ezellohar. If there is no actual source saying that they are, then I would recommend that the descriptions of the resting places of the cauldrons be retained in the later part of the chapter.

VT-LT-05: Nothing wrong with this, but in the paragraph after this addition, it says the Noldor call Varda Elbereth, but as this name is Sindarin, should tis be changed to Sindar?

VT-LT-06: At the end of the paragraph, per my comment on the LQ-04b, I would add back in the description of the resting place of Silindirin.

VT-LT-08b: Why remove so much of the sentence? Only the part about Makar seems unfit, the rest is pretty important.

VT-LT-11.5: I would add back the description of the resting place of Culullin, see above.

VT-LT-12: why remove Vê? Even if it is not his own name, there is no real reason to remove it.

VT-LT-13: This last paragraph cause me and Fin a bunch of trouble, and I like the direction you took much better. However, many of my old objections still apply. Much of the Lost Tales descriptions of Nienna are entirely at odds with her later persona, and thus we need to remove or greatly edit much of this paragraph. Firstly, this:

labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humours whereof are tears, and black clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and their lightless webs settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were despairs and hopeless mourning, sorrows and blind grief.

is entirely unlike her. She is not despair, she is pity, hope, courage. She feels the sadness of the world, but she offers means to cope. She therefore cannot be said to make tears or despairs and hopeless mourning. I would personally remove the entirety of the pasage, but if you wish to update it instead good luck. Secondly, the Halls of Nienna can hardly be said to be more wide and dark than Mandos, the Halls of which "ever widen as the ages pass." Therefore, I worry that this description might be too tied to the Hall in Mandos idea, rather than the later idea of a separate Hall "west of West." Certainly, the grim underworld descriptions of it do not fit her later character at all.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

VT-EX-01b: is the addition of "ancient" really necessary? when this was written the round world numenoran cataclysm had already entered the mythos, so the ancient word was implied already.

This is an addition from the AAm* typescript.

VT-LQ-01.5: I actually realize now that this contradicts the addition of the "vast regions of Ea" into the Cosmological structure with Ainulindale D and later AAm. Should this be changed from "Void and Eldest Darkness" to "Vast Spaces of Ea"?

Hmm, this is an interesting question. What gives me pause is that Ainulindale D probably precedes LQ. So if the new cosmology had already arisen, then perhaps we should construe "Void and Eldest Darkness" as not actually conflicting with the new cosmology? I need to think about this a bit.

VT-EX-03.1: In this version, the "Mountains of Valinor" and just "Valinor" occur before the introduction of the name Valinor as the land of the Valar. Is this a problem?

Good point. I don't see an obvious, easy way to fix this, though I can give it some more thought.

VT-LT-03.5: This is awkward. Maybe instead of changing "their" to "its" at every occurrence, just change the first "Their roofs" to "The roofs of its buildings were .." and leave the "their"s afterwards. Makes it smoother.

I like this suggestion.

VT-EX-30.1: Arie is said to be a Maia of Vana, so this wording cannot stay this way. Maybe

Right, I was confused on this point when I made the draft, but I now see that Arie(n) became a Maia of Varda only with the new story of the Sun in MT II. Without that story, I agree that she should remain a Maia of Vana, so I think your suggestion is good.

This also brings up the small point of her name. In my view, the 'Arie' of MT II (the name derived from earlier 'Azie', itself from the primeval name 'As' or 'Asa' of the Sun) is almost a different character replacing Arien, maiden of Vana. I am half convinced that in rejecting the new story of the Sun, we should also reject 'Arie' in favour of 'Arien'. A small point, though.

VT-LQ-04b: Nowhere in this passage does it say that the wells are near Ezellohar. If there is no actual source saying that they are, then I would recommend that the descriptions of the resting places of the cauldrons be retained in the later part of the chapter.

Good point. The wells are in fact said to be near the Green Mound in AAm, §28, but I missed that statement since I took this passage from LQ. We must stick with the story that they were near Ezellohar, though how to introduce this fact into the text is not so obvious. The wells are now mentioned before Ezellohar is, so we can't really insert the statement the first time we mention the wells. I suppose what we could do is, the first time we mention the Green Mound, add a statement that it is near the wells, something like:

VT-EX-04.4 And before its western gate, <Editorial addition based on AAm near Cululin and Silindirin,> there was a green mound, and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.

Your comment also made me realize that I missed taking up the emendations to AAm here whereby the name 'Ezellohar' was introduced. It should be, then:

VT-EX-04.4 And before its western gate, <Editorial addition based on AAm near Cululin and Silindirin,> there was a green mound, <AAm emendation Ezellohar,> and it was bare save for a sward of unfading grass.

VT-EX-04.5 Then Yavanna and Nienna came to {that Green Mound}[Ezellohar]; and Yavanna hallowed it, . . .

VT-LT-05: Nothing wrong with this, but in the paragraph after this addition, it says the Noldor call Varda Elbereth, but as this name is Sindarin, should tis be changed to Sindar?

I'm not completely sure - this is from the Ainulindale D, which I believe post-dates the change of Noldorin to Sindarin (which arose in the writing of the appendices to LotR). And it is true that in Middle-earth (at least in the 3rd age) the Noldor - like Gildor - do call her that (since they mainly speak Sindarin). On the other hand, Christopher Tolkien saw fit to change 'whom the Noldor name' to 'who in the Sindarin tongue is named'. So perhaps we should follow his lead there.

VT-LT-06: At the end of the paragraph, per my comment on the LQ-04b, I would add back in the description of the resting place of Silindirin.

As noted, I think they do need to be near Ezellohar because of AAm.

VT-LT-08b: Why remove so much of the sentence? Only the part about Makar seems unfit, the rest is pretty important.

I think you're right. We can make this:

VT-LT-08c Nonetheless is he no wrangler or striker of blows unprovoked {as is Makar}, albeit there are none of Valar or Úvanimor (who are monsters, giants, and ogres) that do not fear the sinews of his arm and the buffet of his iron-clad fist, when he has cause for wrath.

VT-LT-11.5: I would add back the description of the resting place of Culullin, see above.

As noted, it needs to be near Ezellohar.

VT-LT-12: why remove Vê? Even if it is not his own name, there is no real reason to remove it.

I think that 'Mandos' clearly replaced 'Ve' as the name of the hall - note that in LT, Mandos is the region, while Ve is specifically the hall. Add to this that Ve is a very old name with no plausible etymology, never mentioned after the Lost Tales, and I think we are best dropping it.

VT-LT-13: This last paragraph cause me and Fin a bunch of trouble, and I like the direction you took much better. However, many of my old objections still apply. Much of the Lost Tales descriptions of Nienna are entirely at odds with her later persona, and thus we need to remove or greatly edit much of this paragraph.

Yes, I hadn't given this much thought, but I think you are completely right about Nienna. I think we should remove the whole paragraph.

[ArcusCalion]

I guess that's everything I saw. I agree with your comments.

On a side note, I see no reason not to include Omar and Nieliqui, since they do not play large narrative roles, and their existence was never denied by Tolkien.

[Findegil]

VT-LQ-01.5: I don’t think that this is a contradiction. Ekkaia is in the new and in the old concept like to what we would call space. And its boundary is the Walls of the World beyond which is the Void.

VT-EX-03.1: We use Valinor already in the heading of the chapter. But still I see reason to replace it here. In the first place we could used “the mountains they raised” and in the second “Aman”.

VT-LT-03.5: I like ArcusCalion’s suggestion as well.

VT-EX-30.1: Hmm, even so we reject the story of the new and holy light, I am not sure that we should not keep the possibility for that story open. Meaning that we will not include it, but as well should not deny it, if not necessary. Therefore I would not specify if Árië/Ariën is a maiden of Vána or Varda. What about just naming her “a maiden of the Maiar”? To the name I am open. For me it doesn’t matter. Both seem to be near variants and Ariën has for me the more feminine feel.

VT-LQ-04b, VT-LT-06 & VT-LT-11.5: I am not sure that what is said about the wells – that they are near the Ezellohar – does contradict what is said about the places of Kululin and Silindrin in LT? Why should not the gardens of Lóriën and Vána stretch along to have areas near the appropriate trees in which the “wells” where places – or to put it in the real sequence: when Aulë needed light, it was for the building of Valimar, therefore the wells were placed near to the place where Valimar was build. When then the gardens of Lóriën and Vána were planted, both liked to include the appropriate well into their garden and extended the gardens accordingly.

VT-EX-04.4 & VT-EX-04.5: Agreed.

Following VT-LQ-05: Agreed. I think we should call that change VT-EX-38.

VT-LT-08c: Agreed.

VT-LT-12 & VT-LT-13: Aiwendil, if you feel not safe with “Vê”, I agree to remove it. The same is true then for “Fui” as the name of the other hall, but I would like to hold that description as I did in my draft:

and go forth to laugh and sing again.>
VT-LT-13b<LT{The}And another hall {that she loved best}there was, one yet wider and more dark than {Vê}[the first]{, and she too named it with her own name, calling it Fui}. Therein before {her}his black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats' wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt. Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither are they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly bring them here; and {Fui}[Námo] reads their hearts.>

Wickedness

Omar and Nieliqui: I am out of that discussion, because I think it is most of all linguistic. If the names are still possible we can include them, if not we should not try to update them.

I had only time to follow the discussion, and not to analyse all the changes. So their might come farther comments. Sorry for that.

Respectfully
Findegil