Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 09-26-2017, 01:53 PM

I agree that this is a straight forward chapter. Nontheless I have a few remarks:

NG-EX-04: The name Nulukikhizidun is used in our Version in some form, but the story is not told in the way it should. The source I would recommend for this is HoMe 12; The Dwarvish origin of the name Felagund. And I think we have to incoperate it here in a way:

Quote:

And he called that place Nargothrond, and made there his home with many of his folk; and the {Gnomes}[Elves] of the North, at first in jest, called him on this account Felagund, NG-EX-04 <LQ2 [Footnote ot the text: This was in fact a {Dwarfish}[Dwarvish] name; for Nargothrond was first made by the Dwarves, as is NG-EX-04.1{later}[here after] recounted. NG-EX-04.2<HoMe 12; The Dwarvish origin of the name Felagund Felagund: Dwarvish NG-EX-04.3{v}[verb] felek hew rock, felak a tool like a broad-bladed chisel, or small axe-head without haft, for cutting stone; to use this tool. {v}[verb] gunud equivalent of Eldarin s-rot NG-EX-04.4{[Footnote to the text: [Elsewhere in these notes. For the stem rot, s-rot is given the meaning 'delve underground, excavate, tunnel', whence Quenya hrota 'dwelling underground, artificial cave or rockhewn hall', rotto 'a small grot or tunnel'.{]} gundu underground hall. felakgundu, felaggundu 'cave-hewer'. This name was given because of Finrod's skill in lighter stone-carving. He cut many of the adornments of the pillars and walls in Nargothrond. He was proud of the name. But it was often by others Eldarized into Felagon, as if it had the same ending (*-kano) as in Fingon, Turgon; and the first element was associated with Sindarin fael 'fair-minded, just, generous', Quenya faila (NG-EX-04.5{?} from {v }phaya 'spirit', adjectival formation meaning 'having a good fea, or a dominant fea').]> or 'lord of caverns’, and that name he bore thereafter until his end. NG-EX-04.6 < HoMe 12; The Dwarvish origin of the name Felagund The name Felagund was of Dwarvish origin. Finrod had help of Dwarves in extending the underground fortress of Nargothrond. It is supposed originally to have been a hall of the Petty-dwarves (NG-EX-04.7{Nibinnogs}[Noegyth Nibin]), but the Great Dwarves despised these, and had no compunction in ousting them NG-EX-04.8{ - hence Mîm's special hatred for the Elves -} especially for great reward. Finrod had brought more treasure out of Tuna than any of the other princes.
>Yet Galadriel his sister dwelt NG-EX-04.9{never}[not] in Nargothrond, but remained in Doriath and received the love of Melian, and abode with her, and there learned great lore and wisdom concerning Middle-earth.> NG-EX-05 <LQ2 Now Turgon remembered rather the City set upon a Hill, …

NG-EX-04.1: This has to be changed because we tell that story right after.

NG-EX-04.2: I added the linguistical part of this note into the footnote to the name.

NG-EX-04.3: I think we should extant Tolkiens short hand.

NG-EX-04.4: Since we are already in a footnote there is no way to put that as a note referring to a note, so we have to put it as a normal text of the footnote.

NG-EX-04.5: The ‘?’ seems to refer to the fact that phaya is not a verb. So I removed both.

NG-EX-04.6: Here I added the first part of the note, that has a more prose character.

NG-EX-04.7: A simple update of the name.

NG-EX-04.8: I think this forward reference has to go.

NG-EX-04.9: I think we discussed this in another thread. It is later told that Galadriel lifed for a time in Nargothrond, so here never is too broad in reference.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 09-26-2017, 05:06 PM

These all look great! The last one about Galadriel never being in Nargothrond, I actually meant to change it, but in the process of compiling the draft it slipped my mind, thank you for catching it!

ArcusCalion · 12-05-2017, 11:22 AM

In the Athrabeth and in the published Sil77, Finrod dwells in Minas Tirith until the Dagor Bragollach, when he removes to Nargothrond. Are we taking this as the final version? Or leaving it the way it is. I am inclined to leave it the way it is, since it makes more sense logistically for Finrod to make a whole city and then live there, as is said several times in the narrative.

Tyr · 12-08-2017, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

NG-EX-04.3: I think we should extant Tolkiens short hand.

NG-EX-04.5: The ‘?’ seems to refer to the fact that phaya is not a verb. So I removed both.

Hi all; the v being interpreted as shorthand is actually the radical symbol √.

ArcusCalion · 12-08-2017, 06:41 PM

omg good catch Tyr!! Tolkien also used * as a root marker in later writings, so I'll change it to that.

Findegil · 12-09-2017, 08:38 AM

Good catch Tyr! I worked only from a scan and never checked the original text. So we can either let the sign stand or change it to 'root'. So I am inclinde to let it stand in this footnote.

ArcusCalion, the * [asterix] form is not really the same as a √ (even so in an artificial language the difference is only a fancy of the author): a √ is found in the recorded past of a language while the * form is only reconstructed by the 'loremasters'.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 12-09-2017, 10:46 AM

Fin, this is true but in Q&E the form, for example, *KWENE is used for roots. In the Shibboleth notes on the sons of Feanor, the roots are simply capitalized, like PHIN. However, in Words, Phrases, and Passages, the roots are written with the radical, but the same roots are repeated in Q&E (a later document) with the asterisk, alongside reconstructed forms by loremasters also using an asterisk. Therefore it seems the published texts are inconsistent on the formation of these roots. We should standardize them. As you say, the asterisk is already used for the reconstructed forms, so perhaps we should go with the radical. If that is the case, then I think we need to standardize it across all documents, from the Shibboleth name notes to the Q&E material to the notes on PHAN and the Osanwe. In addition, in every other setting the roots are capitalized, so should we do that here with these two?

09-26-2017, 05:06 PM	#2
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	These all look great! The last one about Galadriel never being in Nargothrond, I actually meant to change it, but in the process of compiling the draft it slipped my mind, thank you for catching it!

12-05-2017, 11:22 AM	#3
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	In the Athrabeth and in the published Sil77, Finrod dwells in Minas Tirith until the Dagor Bragollach, when he removes to Nargothrond. Are we taking this as the final version? Or leaving it the way it is. I am inclined to leave it the way it is, since it makes more sense logistically for Finrod to make a whole city and then live there, as is said several times in the narrative.

12-08-2017, 06:41 PM	#5
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	omg good catch Tyr!! Tolkien also used * as a root marker in later writings, so I'll change it to that.

12-09-2017, 08:38 AM	#6
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Good catch Tyr! I worked only from a scan and never checked the original text. So we can either let the sign stand or change it to 'root'. So I am inclinde to let it stand in this footnote. ArcusCalion, the * [asterix] form is not really the same as a √ (even so in an artificial language the difference is only a fancy of the author): a √ is found in the recorded past of a language while the * form is only reconstructed by the 'loremasters'. Respectfully Findegil

12-09-2017, 10:46 AM	#7
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Fin, this is true but in Q&E the form, for example, *KWENE is used for roots. In the Shibboleth notes on the sons of Feanor, the roots are simply capitalized, like PHIN. However, in Words, Phrases, and Passages, the roots are written with the radical, but the same roots are repeated in Q&E (a later document) with the asterisk, alongside reconstructed forms by loremasters also using an asterisk. Therefore it seems the published texts are inconsistent on the formation of these roots. We should standardize them. As you say, the asterisk is already used for the reconstructed forms, so perhaps we should go with the radical. If that is the case, then I think we need to standardize it across all documents, from the Shibboleth name notes to the Q&E material to the notes on PHAN and the Osanwe. In addition, in every other setting the roots are capitalized, so should we do that here with these two?