4 Of the coming of the Elves

[gandalf85]

I was actually thinking of some of the more fantastical elements of the Adventures of Tom Bombadil when bringing up that question. I agree with the conclusion you guys came to: It is entirely within reason that Imin, Tata and Enel sent younger ambassadors. We don't have to bend over backwards for that explanation. Anything that seems like a "valid ingredient" as you put it should be included.

[Aiwendil]

Just wanted to let you know that I am now looking at this chapter. My plan is to generate a version of my own first, before looking at Findegil's and ArcusCalion's, just to see how different it ends up being - I think this approach was someone useful for chapters 1 and 2. Then if there are any major divergences we can consider them, and I'll review the details of the version here and see if I have any suggestions.

Sorry again for being so absent of late - the past year or two have been a little bit turbulent in real life, but things look to be settling down a bit.

[ArcusCalion]

Thank you for letting us know! Let me just say right off the bat, that since working on this chapter with Fin, I have changed my mind about using the Quendi and the Eldar bits in this chapter, as I think they work much much better in that essay. Therefore, in my own version of this chapter, I have drastically reduced it by cutting out nearly all of those parts.

[Aiwendil]

Sorry again I've been taking so long with this. I was going to try to write an all-encompassing post, but perhaps it's better if I just post what I have for now.

As an exercise, I tried constructing a version of this chapter first without reference to the version posted here. However, to keep things simple I did not add anything from LT, MT, etc., and I only indicated the spot where the Cuivenyarna would go. So this is really just a basic text built from LQ and AAm. Note, I am not proposing this as the text for our chapter; it was only intended as a point of comparison.

CE-01 <AAm {§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and . . . but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
<AAm{§31} Now Oromë dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, . . . he would often come also to Middle-earth, and there go a-hunting under the stars.> CE-01.2 <AAm* He had great love of horses and of hounds, but all beasts were in his thought, and he hunted only the monsters and fell creatures of Melkor. If he descried them afar or his great hounds got wind of them, then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver as it ran through the shadows, and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves. And at the mort Oromë would blow his great horn, until the mountains shook,> <AAm and things of evil fled away; but Melkor . . . giving battle only to those of little strength, tormenting the weak,> CE-01.3 <AAm* and trusting ever to his slaves to do his evil work.> <AAm Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Oromë passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>
CE-02 <LQ {§18a} It came to pass that the Valar held council, . . .
{§19} And Varda said naught,. . . but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar: {quoth Pengolod}.>
CE-03 <AAm {§37} In that hour, it is said, . . .
{§38} In the changes of the world. . . and the sound of water falling over stone.>
At this point the Cuivenyarna would be inserted
<AAm{§39} Long the Quendi dwelt . . . no other living things that spoke or sang.
CE-04 {§40 At this time also, it is said, Melian, fairest of the Maiar, desiring to look upon the stars, went up upon Taniquetil; and suddenly she desired to see Middle-earth, and she left Valinor and walked in the twilight.}
{1085}
{§41} And when the Elves . . .
{§42} Thus it was that the Valar found at last, as it were by chance, those whom they had so long awaited. And when Oromë looked upon them he was filled with wonder, as though they were things unforeseen and unimagined; and he loved the Quendi, and named them CE-04.1 {Eldar,} the people of the stars.
{§43} Yet many of the Quendi . . .
{§44} Thus it was that when Nahar . . .
{§45} But of those hapless . . .
{1086}
{§46} Oromë tarried a while . . . abode with the Elves.>
CE-05 <LQ{ And the {gods}[Valar] rejoiced, and yet were amazed at what he told; but} Manwë sat long upon Taniquetil deep in thought, . . .
{§21} But now the Valar made ready and came forth from Aman in the strength of war, resolving to assault the CE-05.1 fortress[es] of Melkor in the North and make an end. Never did Melkor forget that this war was made on behalf of the Elves and that they were the cause of his downfall.>
CE-06 <AAm {§48} Melkor met the onset of the Valar. . .
{1092-1100}
{§49} That siege was long and grievous, . . .
{1099}
{§50} It came to pass that at last the gates of Utumno were broken and its halls unroofed, and Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Thence, seeing that all was lost (for that time), he sent forth on a sudden CE-06.1{a host of Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained}<AAm emendation his Balrogs, the last of his servants that remained faithful to him>, and they assailed the standard of Manwë, . . .
{Third section of the Annals of Aman
1100
The Chaining of Melkor}
{§51} Then the Valar returned to the Land of Aman, . . .
{§52} And the Valar doomed Melkor . . . discovered by the Valar.>
CE-07 <LQ {§23} Then again the {gods}[Valar] were gathered in council . . . speak with the tongue{s} of Melkor.
Nonetheless the Elves were at first unwilling . . .
{§24} The Eldar prepared now . . .
{§25} The smallest host . . .
{§26} Next came the Noldor, . . . northern lands of old. CE-07.1 <LQ emendation Dark is their hue and grey are their eyes.>
{§27} The greatest host came last, . . .
{§29} These are the chief peoples of the Eldalië, . . .
The {Alamanyar}[Úmanyar] were . . .
{§30} Others there were also . . .
{[}Other names in song and tale . . .
The Noldor are the Wise, . . .
The Teleri are the Foam-riders, . . . the {Axe}[Staff]-elves, the Green Elves and the Brown, . . . the Lingerers; they are the Friends of Ossë, <LQ emendation the Axe-elves,> the Elves of the Twilight, the Silvern, the Enchanters, the Wards of Melian, the Kindred of Lúthien, the people of Elwë. {Quoth Pengoloð.]}

I'll try to start digging into the details of Findegil's version tomorrow, but some initial thoughts after putting together my version:

- It seems that I relied more heavily on AAm and Findegil on LQ for the basic text. My understanding is that AAm is the later text, so I preferred it in cases where there was nothing else to decide between them, and used LQ only when it gave a fuller account or details that were otherwise missing. I made the following table of correspondences between the section numbers in the two texts, which might be of some use (the .5s indicate part way through a section and the bolded entries indicate the ones I preferred for my draft):

LQ : AAm
18 : 30-31
18a : 32-33
19 : 34-36
20 .0 : 37-46
20.5 - 21.0 : 47
21.5 : 48 - 50
22 : 51-52
23 : 53-57
24-27 : 58
29 : 59-62
30 : 63-66

I think it's worth looking at each LQ/AAm section in Findegil's draft and thinking about whether it or the other source is better.

- I agree that we should include the "Cuivienyarna", but I'm not completely sure how. I don't like the solution of just plopping it down in the middle here without transition or preamble. It seems clear to me that Tolkien did not intend this to <i>necessarily</i> be the "true" story of the Elves' awakening, especially since he noted that the names Imin, Tata, and Enel likely came from the number-words rather than the other way around. I think we need to somehow indicate that this is a story told among the Elves.

- In MT VI, an altered story of the Battle of the Powers is sketched out. I thought about this a bit, but it seems to me that this must be considered a projected change that we cannot implement. I haven't read through Findegil's version enough yet to see if anything was taken from this text, but I'll be continuing to think about this as I read through.

- I haven't looked at LT additions yet, though I see that there are some in Findegil's text. I think that in general I'm more hesitant to add in LT material in small bits than is Findegil, but I have no objection in principle, so this is something else I'll be paying attention to as I read through Findegil's version.

- I tend to think that the etymological discussion in "Quendi and Eldar" should not be included in the narrative of this chapter, though again, I haven't looked at specifics yet.

Mostly I just wanted to post this to start myself going. I hope to carefully read the proposed draft and discussion tomorrow or, at least, within the next few days.

[ArcusCalion]

Greetings Aiwendil! We look forward to reading your comments!

[Aiwendil]

I got off to a good start but then got bogged down with some other things. I think I'll post the comments I have so far, which mainly address the easier early parts.

I think I prefer my selection of LQ vs. AAm (see my post above) as the basic text paragraph by paragraph. For much of the chapter, AAm is the fuller (and later, I believe) text, so taking LQ as the basis throughout means breaking it up with a lot of insertions from AAm. I think it’s better to take full sections from AAm. So, for instance, I would be inclined to start the chapter with AAm section 30, rather than start with LQ section 18, only to switch to AAm after a few sentences.

CE-SL-01: This addition is not needed if we take up the emendation (as indeed we must) from AAm* (given in the notes on AAm), where the change was apparently specifically made to remove Melkor’s creation of the Balrogs:

We must similarly take up the emendation from AAm* in the following section.

Thus, my text:

CE-01 <AAm {§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and . . . but should wait for a time of awakening that yet should be.> CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>
<AAm{§31} Now Oromë dearly loved all the works of Yavanna, . . . he would often come also to Middle-earth, and there go a-hunting under the stars.> CE-01.2 <AAm* He had great love of horses and of hounds, but all beasts were in his thought, and he hunted only the monsters and fell creatures of Melkor. If he descried them afar or his great hounds got wind of them, then his white horse, Nahar, shone like silver as it ran through the shadows, and the sleeping earth trembled at the beat of his golden hooves. And at the mort Oromë would blow his great horn, until the mountains shook,> <AAm and things of evil fled away; but Melkor . . . giving battle only to those of little strength, tormenting the weak,> CE-01.3 <AAm* and trusting ever to his slaves to do his evil work.> <AAm Yet ever his dominion spread southward over Middle-earth, for even as Oromë passed the servants of Melkor would gather again; and the Earth was full of shadows and deceit.>

CE-EX-03: I’m not sure I agree that this needs to be added to explicitly motivate the council. It would make sense to add it if by changing from AAm to LQ here, we somehow missed out on a similar explanation from LQ, but that’s not the case; LQ has a section telling the same stuff, essentially, as in AAm sections 30-31, and then moves on to the council without comment (the motivation being implied, I think). A very minor point, and certainly not one I feel strongly about, but in general I prefer not to break up the texts without good reason.

CE-EX-04: There’s probably a lot to say about the Cuivienyarna, but first I should repeat that I agree in principle that it would be good to include it. I would not that I prefer a slightly different placement for it, where I think it is less disruptive to the text. My version has here:

{§19} And Varda said naught,. . . but in the North in the Elder Days Men called them the Burning Briar: {quoth Pengolod}.>
CE-03 <AAm {§37} In that hour, it is said, . . .
{§38} In the changes of the world. . . and the sound of water falling over stone.>
At this point the Cuivenyarna would be inserted
<AAm{§39} Long the Quendi dwelt . . . no other living things that spoke or sang.

In other words, I would place the Cuivienyarna after AAm sections 37 and 38, which allows those paragraphs to form a complete thought before diverting our attention to the legend. One might, I suppose, object to the slight atemporality of mentioning that the first sound the Elves heard was the sound of water before the Cuivienyarna tells that they awaken, but that atemporality is there anyway since the very first sentence of the Cuivienyarna returns to the time “when their first bodies were being made”.

I’d also note, and this is a small and very minor point, that I see no reason to import the first sentence from LQ section 20 to replace the beginning of AAm section 37; as in my version, I prefer to use sections 37-38 of AAm in their entirety.

Now we come to the hard question of the status of the Cuivienyarna. I think the evidence shows that Tolkien did not intend this to be (necessarily) the “real” story of the awakening of the Elves, in all its details. He noted on the typescript itself:

Actually written (in style and simple notions) to be a surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore.

Then there’s the footnote attached to the statement that the Elvish words for “one”, “two” and “three” came from the names of Imin, Tata, and Enil:

The Eldarin words referred to are Min, Atta (or Tata), Nel. The reverse is probably historical. The Three had no names until they had developed language, and were given (or took) names after they had devised numerals (or at least the first twelve).

Which shows that he considered at least some details of the legend to be likely “untrue”. And finally, the story is referred to both in its title and in “Quendi and Eldar” as a legend. That doesn’t mean it’s not “true”, of course, but it does mean that Tolkien is not telling us that it’s true.

All of which is to say that I have a nagging feeling that we must insert something to set the legend apart as just that, and I’m not sure that including the title is enough. I would suggest that we might use Tolkien’s own note from the typescript as an additional subtitle:

CE-EX-04 <Q&E
The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi
(Cuivienyarna)
<Q&E note to Cuivienyarna[A] surviving Elvish "fairytale" or child's tale, mingled with counting-lore>
While their first bodies were being made ...

CE-SL-06, -07: I wonder if it’s not better simply to remove this bit rather than make this editorial addition:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and later the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars[.]{, and the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy. For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>

CE-EX-06 - CE-EX-23: As a general comment, I think the MT material here and following feels very jarring and out of place. These texts are very much Tolkien, in his own voice, commenting on his story and world, and inserting large parts of this into the story itself feels like a bit of an abuse of those texts to me. It would be different if the MT texts in question provided critical components of the narrative, but mostly they just explain and contemplate the narrative.

If the decision is to keep this material, I think ArcusCalion’s suggestion of making it a separate section with its own sub-heading is a good one, but I think it will need a lot more work. My vote would be not to include it here. Perhaps if a coherent and self-sufficient text can be made of it, it could be separated and put elsewhere, for instance as an appendix?

[Findegil]

I can see your reasoning for the different choice of the basic text. I did rather choose by fiting structure than by anthing else. So I am over all not in opposition against AAm as basic text. But as a matter of fact I think that some of passages that I kept from LQ add worth while information. So let have the discussion pice by pice.

I do not mind if we start with LQ §18 or AAm §30 and if you prefer AAm that is okay for me, but the more detailed description of growth that had been checked seems worth the interruption of the text for me. What about this:

CE-01<AAm{§30} For one thousand years of the Trees the Valar dwelt in bliss in Valinor beyond the Mountains of Aman, and all Middle-earth lay in a twilight under the stars.> <LQ While the Lamps had shone, growth began there which now was checked, because all was again dark. But already the oldest living things had arisen: in the sea the great weeds, and on the earth the shadow of great trees; and in the valleys of the night-clad hills there were dark creatures old and strong.> <AAm Thither the Valar seldom came, save only Yavanna and Orome; …

As well I find it sad to loos Yavanna’s feeling of ‘ill content that it[Middle-earth] was forsaken’. With this and the removal of CE-EX-03 we would nearly annihilate an explicit thread of the storyline in LQ with Yavanna as the one actively pushing the other Valar to act in Middle-earth. The only part left is her speech at the council. But if you feel it necessary that is bearable.

CE-SL-01: Do I understand rightly, that you suppose to leave that detailed description of the Balrogs including their nature and physical exterior out yust because it would mean an insertion into a text composition? To this I am strongly in opposition and the ‘corollary’ to our rules is with me on this issue I think. Anyhow ‘multiplied the race of the evil spirits that followed him’ can in my opinion not stand alone. How could he multiply spirits? Did What about this editing:

… CE-01.1<AAm* But Melkor dwelt in Utumno, and he did not sleep, but watched and laboured; and whatsoever good Yavanna worked in the lands he undid if he could, and the evil things that he had perverted walked far abroad, and the dark and slumbering woods were haunted by monsters and shapes of dread. And in Utumno he CE-SL-01b {multiplied}<LQ gahthered> the race of the evil spirits that followed him, the Úmaiar, of whom the chief were those demons whom the Elves afterwards named the Balrogath. <LQ; Ch. 3; Note to §18 These were the {(}ealar{)}[Footnote to the text: 'spirit' (not incarnate, which was fëa, {S[indarin]}Sindarin fae). eala 'being'.] spirits who first adhered to him in the days of his splendour, and became most like him in his corruption: their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame.> But they did not yet come forth from the gates of Utumno because of their fear of Oromë.>

CE-EX-04: You are right, however clver we may place the Cuivienyarna there will be some forward and backward jumping in time. For me your placement does worl equally well, so if the other don’t mind we can change the place.
A agree that when using AAm §37 - §38 it doesn’t make sense to use the first sentence of LQ §20. It made it to my text because LQ was my basic and I didn’t liked another change before the palce where I gave the Cuivienyarna.

’Legendary’ character of the Cuivienyarna: Wow, I would not have expected such a ‘inovative’ use of a author’s note to be considered acceptable. But I am okay with this.

CE-SL-06: Interisting that I would like to remove the ‘sun of summer’ which you ememnd by putting in ‘later’ and I would hold the twilight times by editorial emendation. Are you sure that the concept has been abondaned that the sun was a sign for the waning of the first born and for the approach of the Dominion of Men? That was my reason to remove the ‘sun of summer’. But however that might be Elvish joy might always be mingled with some sadness, wo we might keep the ‘sun of summer’ as you proposed.
CE-SL-07: I agree that my amendations are a bit on the heavy side, what about only skiping the later part and adding in the same style as before only a ‘later’:

Now the Quendi loved all of Arda that they had yet seen, and green things that grew and CE-SL-06b<editorial addition later> the sun of summer were their delight; but nonetheless they were ever moved most in heart by the Stars, and CE-SL-07b<editorial addition later> the hours of twilight in clear weather, at 'morrowdim' and at 'even-dim', were the times of their greatest joy.{ For in those hours in the spring of the year they had first awakened to life in Arda.} But the Lindar, above all the other Quendi, from their beginning were most in love with water, and sang before they could speak.>

CE-EX-05.3: Oops, we have not marked this, but it must be removed since we don’t know for sure how the relations was:

{ 1085
§41 }And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar CE-EX-05.3{ (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)} it chanced that Oromë rode to {Endon}[Endor] in his hunting, …

CE-EX-06 to CE-EX-23: (CE-EX-24 is actually the Sub-chapter heading, which we should discusse independently.) I agree that this enlargement might have become to big an exagreation for the text of our propose at this palce. I agree to remove it. But I think it should become the grain for building up a part of volume III.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

CE-01: If both of Aiwendil's suggestions are valid, I suppose we must choose for stylistic reasons. I prefer the first suggestion, starting with AAm.

CE-SL-01: I agree to Fin's latest change, and changing "multiplied" to "gathered".

CE-EX-04: I agree to Aiwendil's placement of the Cuivienyarna. I think including the information that this is a child's tale is a great idea, including it in the sub-heading works well.

CE-SL-06, 07: I agree with Fin's changes. I say we keep the sun of summer; the Elves are very much a mix of joy and sorrow, so the idea that they delight in the sun while simultaneously recognizing that it signals their downfall works very well.

CE-EX-06 - -23: Definitely agree with moving this to Volume III.

I have a few other recommendations/changes:

1. There are a few "k->c" changes which need to be made in this chapter, including "Valakirka->Valacirca", "Kuivienen->Cuivienen", "Helkar->Helcar", "Kalaquendi->Calaquendi" and "Orokarni->Orocarni". Also, the change "Ork->Orc" should be made throughout the whole document.

2.In §41:

And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty Years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)

Is this conversion right? What are we using as the length of a Valian year?

3. A few typos:

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with greatpower - and to entxeat him

"greatpower" should be two words and "entxeat" should be "entreat"

them to get the Quendi out of {his}Melkors sphere of influence

"Melkors" should be "Melkor's"

and on a powerlevel with the Valar

"powerlevel" should be two words.

4.

Then arose a clamour among the {Gods}[Valar] and the most spake for {Palúrien}[Kementári] and Vána, whereas CE-EX-50{Makar}[Ulmo] said that Valinor was builded for the Valar{ – ‘and already is it a rose-garden of fair ladies rather than an abode of men. Wherefore do ye desire to fill it with the children of the world?’ In this Measse backed him, and}. Mandos and {Fui}[Niënna] were cold to the Eldar as to all else...

This is not in keeping with the later conception of Nienna, a goddess of compassion and empathy. I say we change it to: "Mandos {and Fui were}[was] cold to the Eldar as to all else..."

5.

But the desire of the {Gods}[Valar] was to seek out {Melko}[Melkor] with great power - and to entreat him, if it might be, to better deeds; yet did they purpose, if naught else availed, to overcome him by force or guile, and set him in a bondage from which there should be no escape.>

The idea of the Valar using "guile" doesn't feel in keeping with their later conception, I would simply change it to "overcome him by force {or guile}".

6. I would move the entire "The Clan-names, with notes on other names for divisions of the Eldar" section to Volume 3, to a chapter with other linguistic material.

[gandalf85]

CE-EX-35.5: Aiwendil's change looks good to me.

CE-EX-37: I agree with Fin's analysis. It is what I had assumed when reading the original text. Since his reworking makes it more clear, I agree to it.

CE-EX-39: I do not see why point 5 is contradictory and unworkable. Melkor's forces are defeated, and then he feigns remorse and repentance instead of choosing to fight on. I agree that the prose is more analytical at points rather than narrative, but I think if we want to include these points this is the best place to do it. I actually think Fin's original more chronological edit works better than his latest proposed change where there is a sort of reflection after the confrontation with Melkor. I propose either we use the original editing, or move all the extra-textual analysis about Melkor's dispersal of his power to Volume 3. I will think about it some more, but right now I'm leaning towards the former.

[gandalf85]

Just wanted to check in on how everyone is doing. I'm taking two classes at Signum this semester: Beyond Middle Earth (which focuses on Tolkien's short stories and academic work) and Beowulf in Old English (where we translate Beowulf into Modern English). It's keeping me pretty busy. How is everyone doing?