Chapter 1: Of the Beginning of Time

[Findegil]

BoT-03: “fields of Aman” to “fields of Arda”: Why? It is a change from specific to unspecific. So why should the new comers of the Manwë party not decent into Arda first in the fields of Aman?

BoT-03.5: I propose to add a bit from LT here:

But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself others of his kin and many spirits both greater and less, and they went down into the fields of Aman and aided Manwë, lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered. BoT-03.5<LT Then when all these great spirits were gathered together within the confines of the world Manwe spake to them, saying: "Lo now! How may the Valar abide in this fair place or be happy and rejoice in its goodness, if {Melko}[Melkor] be suffered to destroy it, and make fire and turmoil, so that we have nowhere to sit in peace, nor may the earth blossom or the designs of Ilúvatar come to being?"
Then all the Valar were angered with {Melko}[Melkor], and>{And} Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here {no less than thou}.' And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar …

BoT-08: That passage names the conflict the first battle. I am inclined to keep it simply for that reason.

BoT-08.5: The detail that this would add is small. And fro reasons of safety which Aiwendil explained I agree to omit it.

BoT-13b: Sorry Aiwendil, but I am not happy with you arrangement. Yes AAm should be preferred to avoid to much chopping up of the texts, but in this passages other sources have fuller accounts. The things they add might not be to very substantial but this phase of the story of Middle-earth is reported sparingly enough, so that I would like to include even tiny details. What about:

BoT-13b <AAm Now the Valar began their labours anew; and when the lands and the waters were ordered the Valar had need of light, that the seeds of Yavanna's devising might grow and have life. BoT-14b <LQ, Of Valinor and the two Trees But since Melkor had perverted light to a destroying flame, when he was gone and his fires were subdued> or buried beneath the primeval hills, there was need of light>. Aulë therefore wrought two great lamps, as it were of silver and of gold and yet translucent, and Varda filled them with hallowed fire, to give light to the Earth.> BoT-13.5 <Ainulindalë D {and}And the Valar set them upon high pillars, more lofty far than are any mountains of the later days. One lamp they raised near to the North of Middle-earth, and it was named {[Forontë >]} Illuin; and the other was raised in the South, and it was named {[Hyarantë >]} Ormal; and the light of the Lamps of the Valar flowed out over the Earth, so that all was lit as it were in a changeless Day.

BoT-13.5: Again propose to add a bit from LT here:

… but wealth there was of her imagining, and nowhere more rich than in the midmost parts of the Earth, where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[Ulmo’s] counsel that each of the Valar should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo, but of the {Gods}[Valar] some took his words{ in faith} and would use his advice, but others distrusted; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the Shadowy Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Yavanna], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils and trusted his {promises}[departure] not at {all}[for long], that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate as {he}[Ulmo] bid, lest {he}[Melkor] take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us save Manwe only? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}.> BoT-15 <AAm But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, …

gondowe, please see your pm.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

BoT-03: “fields of Aman” to “fields of Arda”: Why? It is a change from specific to unspecific. So why should the new comers of the Manwë party not decent into Arda first in the fields of Aman?

This was actually a mistake on my part. Tolkien originally wrote "Halls of Aman" here in Ainulindale C, and this was changed to "fields of Arda" in D.

BoT-03.5: I think Findegil's suggestion to use the Lost Tales passage here is good. However, I would then delete the phrase "lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered", since exactly this motivation is made clear immediately after in the quote by Manwe:

But Manwë was the brother of Melkor in the mind of Ilúvatar, and he was the chief instrument of the second Theme that Ilúvatar had raised up against the discord of Melkor; and he called unto himself others of his kin and many spirits both greater and less, and they went down into the fields of Arda and aided Manwë, BoT-03.5 {lest Melkor should hinder the fulfilment of their labour for ever, and the Earth should wither ere it flowered}. <LT Then when all these great spirits were gathered together within the confines of the world Manwe spake to them, saying: "Lo now! How may the Valar abide in this fair place or be happy and rejoice in its goodness, if {Melko}[Melkor] be suffered to destroy it, and make fire and turmoil, so that we have nowhere to sit in peace, nor may the earth blossom or the designs of Ilúvatar come to being?"
Then all the Valar were angered with {Melko}[Melkor], and>{And} Manwë said unto Melkor: 'This kingdom thou shalt not take for thine own, wrongfully, for many others have laboured here {no less than thou}.' And there was strife between Melkor and the Valar …

BoT-08: It's true that the name of the war is given here, so I'm fine with keeping it.

BoT-13b: OK, I agree that there are some small details here that were missed in my version, and I think your suggestion is good.

BoT-13.7, -13.8: I see the appeal of the idea here, but for me taking the words of Melko and giving them to Ulmo is going a bit too far.

[ArcusCalion]

everything looks good.

BoT-13.7, -13.8: It cannot be Ulmo who says it, bc the next sentence says "In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo" The way this is constructed it cannot be attributed to anyone besides Melkor without quite seeming to fit. The imagery of Ulmo being alone in the deep is also given later, in the next chapter, so we dont need to repeat it here. As for the second addition, I like it and I think it is in line with the later idea, minus the promises of Melkor. I would change

and trusted his {promises}[departure] not at {all}[for long],

to

and trusted [that] his {promises}[departure] [was] not {at all}[for long],

Also the bit about the words of [Ulmo] should be removed if we do not take up part 1.

[Findegil]

BoT-13.7, BoT-13.8: Okay, I see that Ulmo in the role of Melkor arguing for the split is to risky. But what about this:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar] counsel that each of the Valar should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo, but of the {Gods}[Valar] some took {his}[this] words{ in faith} and would use {his}[this] advice, but others distrusted; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the Shadowy Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Yavanna], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils and trusted [that] his {promises}[departure was] not {at all}[for long], that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest {he}[Melkor] take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us save Manwe only? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

hmmm this looks fine to me. I have a few grammatical and other minor suggestions:

BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[the] counsel [of some of the Valar] that each of the {Valar}[them] should now depart and dwell amid those things that {he}[they] loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend {his}[their] sway beyond its just boundaries. In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwë and Ulmo, but of the {Gods}[Valar] some took {his}[these] words{ in faith} and would use {his}[this] advice, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the {Outer Lands}[Middle-earth]. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his {magic}[power] deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the {Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>

I changed Outer Lands to Middle-earth, since the term Outer Lands is never used in later writings, and the Middle-earth is what is meant by it. I also removed the Shadowy from Shadowy Seas, but this is because I am unsure if the Shadowy Seas are meant to refer to the seas outside of Aman or if it is a general term for everything.

[Aiwendil]

BoT-13.7, -13.8: I'm still having some problems with this passage. Ascribing Melko's duplicitous counsel to a vague 'some of the Valar' is perhaps better than ascribing it to Ulmo, but still seems rather risky to me. On the other hand, I do suppose we know that some of the Valar must have preferred to head off on their own. But if we are to take the passage, I would edit it down more significantly:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar's] counsel that each of the {Valar}them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. {In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo,} {but}But of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would use {his}[this] advice, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the {Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Yavanna], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils and {trusted [that] his {promises}[departure was] not {at all}[for long],} that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest he take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us {save Manwe only}? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, ...

The main things I've done here are:

- The "covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo" must, I think, go. This is Melko subtly trying to stir dissent among the Valar; but now we must assume that the Valar who argue that all should separate are doing so in good faith.

- Similarly, the contrast of those who "took his word in faith" and those who "distrusted" must go. These again depend on the fact that Melko was indeed dissembling and was untrustworthy. With the argument instead ascribed to other Valar, it should go without saying that their words are taken in faith; the others disagree not because they distrust but because they think it is better to remain together.

- From the context in the Lost Tales, it's clear that the "Shadowy Seas" are indeed those near Valinor. But these must go since now they are not shadowy until the Hiding of Valinor.

- Instead of distorting the bit about Aule and Yavanna not trusting Melkor, I would rather just remove that phrase. The passage still works without it.

- Melkor is now more powerful than Manwe, so we must remove "save Manwe only".

The passage itself seems reasonable to me if we make those changes. However, I still don't like the fact that it breaks up LQ, separating the description of the blending of the lights from the statement that the Valar made their home in that region. At the very least, we must somehow still include the fact that Almaren was in the region where the lights blended.

[gondowe]

Well, Im going start bit a bit.
With this last passage you are discussing, in general terms I'm agree with Aiwendil.
I took the decision of give the text more general sense:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar were of the opinion] {counsel} that each of {the Valar} them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries. {In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo,} {but}And of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would [agreed] {use his advice}, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the {Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Kementari], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils {and trusted his promises not at all}[,were of the opinion] that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest he take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us save Manwe only? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And there [where the light of both the Lamps met and blended,] upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, ...

The sintaxis I left for you.
Perhaps now in this time Manwë and Melkor were equal and the Valar knew It?
"where the light of both the Lamps met and blended." I think It should be repeated because Almaren was builded there.

Greetings

[Findegil]

We could take up BoT-15 a bit earlier:

... where the light of both the Lamps met and blended. BoT-13.7 <LT {Rather}[Now] was it {his}[some of the Valar’s] counsel that each of {the Valar}them should now depart and dwell amid those things that he loved upon Earth, nor should any seek to extend his sway beyond its just boundaries.{ In this there was some covert reflection upon Manwe and Ulmo, but}But of the {Gods}[Valar] some {took his words in faith and} would use {his}[this] advice, but others {distrusted}[dissented]; and in the midst of their debate Ulmo arose and went to the Outermost Seas that were set beyond the Outer Lands. He loved not high words nor concourse of folk, and in those deep waters moveless and empty he purposed to dwell, leaving the governance of the Great and lesser seas to Ossë and {Onen}[Uinen] his vassals. Yet ever of his magic deep in his outermost sea-halls of Ulmonan he controlled the faint stirrings of the{ Shadowy} Seas, and ruled the lakes and springs and rivers of the world.>BoT-13.8 <LT It was the rede of Aulë and of his wife {Palurien}[Kementári], for they were the most grieved by the mischief of {Melko}[Melkor]'s turmoils{ and trusted his promises not at all}, that the {Gods}[Valar] should not separate{ as he bid}, lest {he}[Melkor] take it into his heart perchance to attack them singly or do hurt to their possessions. "Is he not," said they, "more powerful than any one of us{ save Manwe only}? Rather let us build a dwelling wherein we may abide in joy together, faring only at need to the care and survey of our goods and fiefs. There even such as be of other mind may dwell at times, and find rest and pleasance after labours in the world." Now Aulë's mind and fingers itched already to be making things, and he urged this matter the more for that; and to most of the {Gods}[Valar] it seemed a good counsel, and they fared about the world seeking a place to dwell in.> And{ there} upon the Isle of Almaren in the Great Lake was made the first dwelling of the {gods}[Valar] when all things were young, and new-made green was yet a marvel in the eyes of the makers{; and they were long content}.>BoT-15b<AAm {and}And that lake was between Illuin and Ormal in the midmost of Arda, were because of the blending of the lights, all things were richest in growth an fairest of hue. But the Valar were seldom there gathered in company, for ever they would fare abroad in Arda, each in his own business.

Respectfully
Findegil