2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[Aiwendil]

VT-LT-11.7: How about:

... Its innermost solitude is walled with roses, and this is the place best beloved of that fair lady of the Spring. VT-EX-11.7 Amidmost of this place of odorous air did Aulë set long ago that {cauldron}[well], gold {Kulullin}[Cululin], filled ever with the radiance of Laurelin like shining water, and thereof he contrived a fountain so that all the garden was full of the health and happiness of its pure light. Birds sang there all the year with the full throat of spring, and flowers grew in a riot of blossom and of glorious life. Yet was {none}[little] ever of that splendour spilled from the {vat}[well] of gold save when Vána's maidens led by {Urwen}[Ariën] left that garden at the waxing of Silpion to water the roots of the tree of flame; but by the fountain it was always light with the amber light of day, as bees made busy about the roses, and there trod Vána lissomly while larks sang above her golden head.>

VT-LT-13: I think Findegil's last suggestion is good.

VT-LT-14: I can certainly agree to Nienna still distilling tears, but I'm having a hard time convincing myself about the clouds, and it seems very awkward to me to repeat a phrase directly from the Valaquenta here. I'm not sure I have a solution, though, without dropping Nienna from the descriptions here.

[ArcusCalion]

Agreed to everything so far, and Aiwendil's suggestion for the Cululin edit looks good.

VT-LT-14: I see no real issue with repeating from the Valaquenta, and I think that something must be said about her in this list, as she is one of the most important ones. As it is, the only ones who have nothing said here about their dwellings are Vaire and Este, the two least important of the Valar. Nienna is much more important, and I think to leave her out would be worse than repeating something small. I might even do more:

VT-LT-14<LT {for she}[But Niënna] labored {rather} at the distilling of salt humors whereof are tears, and {black} clouds she wove and floated up that they were caught in the winds and went about the world, and {their lightless webs}[they] settled ever and anon upon those that dwelt therein. Now these tissues were {despairs and hopeless mourning,} sorrows and {blind} grief, <Vala but those who hearken to Niënna learn pity and endurance in hope>. The hall {that she loved best}[where she dwelt] was {one yet wider and more dark than Vê}<Vala west of West, upon the borders of the world>, and she {too} named it {with her own name, calling it} Fui. {Therein before her black chair burnt a brazier with a single flickering coal, and the roof was of bats’ wings, and the pillars that upheld it and the walls about were made of basalt.}>

[ArcusCalion]

I actually have another point I just saw. In the mater of elvish reincarnation, this LT passage about the fate of Men is actually surprisingly applicable:

Few are they and happy indeed for whom at a season doth Nornore the herald of the Gods set out. Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Valmar, dwelling in the houses of the Gods until the Great End come. Far away are they from the black mountains of the North or the misty plains of Arvalin, and music and fair light is theirs, and joy.

If we edit it like so:

{Few are they and happy}Happy indeed are they for whom at a season doth {Nornore}[Eönwë] the herald of the Gods set out. Then ride they with him in chariots or upon good horses down into the vale of Valinor and feast in the halls of Val[i]mar, dwelling in the {houses}[land] of the {Gods}[Valar] until the Great End come. Far away are they from the black mountains of the North or the misty plains of {Arvalin}[Araman], and music and fair light is theirs, and joy.

This is a pretty accurate encapsulation of elvish reincarnation, with the addition that Eonwe brings them back into life. Should we include it here, or at all?

[Findegil]

VT-LT-11.7: Agreed.

VT-LT-14: It seems our opinions are fare sundered. Let's sort the discussion:
1. Mentioning Nienna at this point: We all agree that it would be good to mention her, but the only thing we agreed upon so fare are the destilling of tears.

2. The clouds of grief: ArcusCalion and I find this acceptable, but Aiwendil has a problem with this.

3. The hall in LT called Fui: Aiwendil and I agree that this should in our version be a description the special hall in Mandos in which Námo gathers the fëa of Men. But ArcusCalion would like to use the description for the dwelling of Nienna.

4. Snipets of Valaquenta used here again or moved to here: Aiwendil is complete against it, ArcusCalion would repeat the passages in question, and I would move them. In the end Aiwendil's point of view is the safest and has to rule. I search the older version of the former chapter "Of the Valar": But what is in there is either not useable or virtually the same as in the Valaquenta.

I have no solution ready for these points, but it might be helpful to sort them.

LT passage about the fate of Men: This is for sure a no go. On the one hand I don't think the passages realy fit the rehousing of Elves, since we are told that Manwe was the one to give the Elves the new boddy and it would be a case changing the sense of Tolkiens text greatly with out changing the words over much - for sure that is not wanted.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I would say that Fui is not a requirement for me. I do not feel too strongly about dropping it. As for the description, I certainly do not want to use it for Nienna, I removed that part in my suggestion. I would say that we cannot move the Valaquenta passages without real good reason, which we do not have. I think small repetition is harmless and the best solution to the issue.

As for the Fate of Men passage you are right, I just figured I'd throw it out there.

Another side note, I think the chapter should end on a more final note than the description of Nienna's hall, so perhaps we could take up this LT sentence as a way to close out the chapter:

VT-LT-16 <LT Therefore {is}was Valinor {now} built, and there {is}was great peace there, and the {Gods}[Valar] in joy, for {those} quarrelsome spirits {dwell}dwelt not {much} among them, and {Melko comes}Melkor came not nigh.>

[gondowe]

I have to review quietly all the text but lets go start with a little thing.
In VT-LT-03.5, shouldn´t be deleted the allusions to spells and magic?
Greetings

[ArcusCalion]

This actually brings up an issue we have not discussed with Aiwendil, and I meant to comment on, but had forgotten. Fin and I, in our editing, have been replacing the word "magic," since Tolkien expressed distaste for the word, and equated it with an evil power. In Lord of the Rings, Galadriel expresses no knowledge of what is meant by magic when Sam asks her, and so I think that we should avoid the use of the word, at least whenever it does not refer to the work of Morgoth. Spells, however, we have agreed to keep, as also enchantments, since spells are referenced in LotR by Gandalf in a positive way, and "enchantments" has a good connotation. Wherever "magic" appears, I replace it, usually with something like "power." That is what I used in the Valimar segment, but in the Aule's Hall description, I used "cunning." I cannot remember any of the others off the top of my head, but they are all fairly straightforward.