6 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië

[ArcusCalion]

EPE-EX-12.5: I do not think it is explicit enough to warrant a deletion, but I suppose there is no real harm.

EPE-EX-12.6: Ah, I was not thinking. I agree.

On a side not, are you taking up the heading "Aman" as well for a subheading in the chapter?

Personally, I am against its inclusion here. It is told from the point of view of a Man discussing the nature of Aman. Thus, the Eldar are referenced in the third person, and terms such as "we must not forget that..." Overall, it is a philosophical musing of someone who has never been to Aman about what it is like in its nature. I am more inclined to keep it separate.

[Findegil]

About the heading: Yes, I would take it as a sub-heading in this chapter. For the second part in volume 2 I would use “Aman and mortal Men” as a full heading, under which I would include as well the parts of the Akallabeth telling of the desire of the Númenoreans for eternal life, the message of the Valar and the reaction of the Numenoreans. It would be placed between Of the Rings of Power telling of the war in Eregion and the War in Eriador and Tal-Elmar which includes the part of the Akallabeth telling about the division of the Numenoreans and their starting to make permanent lordships in Middle-earth.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I agree that that'd be a good place to put Aman and Mortal Men, since the Akallabeth is written by a Man and not an Elf. However, if this part is to be inserted into the Quenta Silmarillion, I think we must change one more thing:

In recording the events in Aman, therefore, EPE-EX-12.45 {we may as did} the Eldar {themselves use}used the Valian unit, though {we must not forget that} within any such ‘year' the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of delights and achievements EPE-EX-12.5 which even the most gifted of Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelve mortal years. Nonetheless the Eldar ‘aged’ at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.

Because the author of the QS is an Elf, we must remove those bits.

Also, this is a point I was unsure of, but at the end:

Then an Elf would begin EPE-EX-12.7 (as they say now, for these things did not fully appear in the Elder Days) to 'fade',

The part in the parentheses I am unsure about. If we suppose this to be written by Pengolodh at eh Mouths of Sirion and then in Tol Eressea before being brought back to Middle-earth by the Numenoreans or Glorifindel, then would the Elves have begun fading?

[Findegil]

EPE-EX-12.45: This is a possibility. But on the other hand it is clear that our text has been handled by other then the original author. So we could assume this to be a inclusion by some such. I would like to have here the input of others.

The same is true for your second point. So here I think that at the middle of the Second Age, when Pengolodh left Middle-earth the fading was already observable.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

I'm holding off on commenting on any of this until I can give my full attention to this chapter. However, I will say I'm somewhat disinclined to use 'Aman' here. It strikes me much more as commentary on the story than as something to be used in a narrative.

But I will look at this in detail when we turn our attention back to this chapter.

[Findegil]

That was what I expacted. My message was not to promot you to this, but to make clear that I think more opinions are needed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

We had discussed the question of the word "Máyar" and I have just found this in Words, Phrases, and Passages:

√AYA-N treat with awe/reverence. Cf. especially ainur "the Holy Ones" (plural of *ainu < adjective aina 'revered').
This ainur only appears in plural since after the Creation all those known were máyar. Máyar includes Valar and their lesser kin, but not those who either did not take part in the Great Theme, or else did not enter into Eä. So The Ainur is used only of the Spirits before Creation, or of those unnamed who are not concerned with it.

In this same essay the term "Maiar" is used later on, so it would seem that these terms might have been contemporary. However, this document is composed in several stages of composition, and the occurrence of the word "Maiar" is in the later stage than the occurrence of "Máyar." In addition, further on we have:

√MAY- excellent, admirable. [Cf. máya/maia, name of the Kin of the Valar, but especially of those of lesser power than the 9 great rulers.

This alone would settle the debate that the two are interchangeable, but even after this the entry was edited to say

Cf. Maiar

I think this proves it.

Sidenote: There is this sentence in the entry on "Calacirya"

Many jewels were embedded in the rocks of its walls.

Do we want this in the chapter? or is it too minor a detail to include?